Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics
"Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" <tireddy@cisco.com> Tue, 07 August 2012 16:20 UTC
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From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" <tireddy@cisco.com>
To: Cameron Byrne <cb.list6@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics
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Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:20:02 +0000
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Cc: "randell-ietf@jesup.org" <randell-ietf@jesup.org>, "phdgang@gmail.com" <phdgang@gmail.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics
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> If you are suggesting that mobile operators should buy this product to > block Skype, you are probably on the wrong mailing list. I am not selling this product. I am just saying that these products are offered to Mobile Operators to detect Port Misuse/for other security purposes like detecting viruses and hence the Mobile Network will have a firewall/IPS that will do DPI. My argument is IPv6 Firewall/IPS in various modes like content filtering, Application Visibility and Control when deployed in Mobile Network will have sessions just like NAT but a different purpose and will have timeout mechanism. PCP can also be used to avoid keep-alive for Firewall sessions. It's up to the Mobile Operator policy to permit the flow or not, honor the PCP request or not to permit certain flow. --Tiru. > -----Original Message----- > From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:39 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > Cc: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com; rtcweb@ietf.org; phdgang@gmail.com; > randell-ietf@jesup.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > <tireddy@cisco.com> wrote: > >> I know of one large USA mobile operator that is not SPI firewalling > or tracking state for ipv6 mobiels, so this is not a problem for them. > >> If operators choose to statefully inspect user traffic, those cost > and limitations are assumed as part of the cost and service definition > from the mobile > >> operator. > >> IMHO, SPI FW in ipv6 is not prudent or cost justified in mobile > networks. > > > > > http://www.bluecoat.com/sites/default/files/documents/files/Content_Fil > tering_for_Mobile_Operators.pdf > > offers URL filtering based on user profile, claims to block Skype if > sent over port 80/443 > (http://www.bluecoat.com/sites/default/files/documents/files/How_Mobile > _Operators_Can_Control_Skype.1.pdf), block viruses/worm. This product > is targeted for Mobile Operators. > > > > Since you just sent URLs without an explanation, i am not sure the > intent of your email. > > If you are suggesting that mobile operators should buy this product to > block Skype, you are probably on the wrong mailing list. > > If you are suggesting mobile operators should buy this product to > block Skype and then use PCP to allow Skype, .... Not sure that will > get much traction either. > > CB > > > --Tiru. > > > > > > From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 8:41 PM > > To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com > > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); phdgang@gmail.com; > randell-ietf@jesup.org > > Subject: RE: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2012 7:13 AM, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Cameron, > >> > >> Cameron Byrne wrote: > >> > > >> >I asked around in Vancouver about PCP, and all the operators i > spoke to said > >> >no-plans, no motivation. But, that was a small sample. > >> > >> This is probably a fair assessment about the concrete plans. Most > mobile operators don't even follow IETF much, so I doubt that they have > even heard about PCP so far. There are however a few operators, where > at least the research and standardization people have been interested > in PCP (as witnessed by http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-pcp- > mobile-deployment/). I think some operators are also proposing PCP to > be included in the 3GPP specs (release 12). It is hard to say how much > that means in the real world, but at least I'd expect we could find a > few operators willing to do real-network trials withing the next 12 > months. > >> > >> Personally I see PCP as a very useful tool in the cellular access > environment, for probing the NAT/FW timers and in the best case even > setting them. It will be a major chicken-and-egg situation between > apps, mobile OS's and the networks, to get anything into use. I think > we should still do our best to overcome it. I agree that RTCWeb or > anyone else should not rely on PCP (or any similar mechanim), but have > the ability to make use of it if it happens to be available. > >> > >> I'm unconvinced IPv6 will help at all in this case. How do you know > how long the FW on the path will keep its state up without keepalives? > It will probably be the same as for NATs: In some networks timeout is 2 > minutes, while in others 60 minutes. Having something like PCP to check > out that it indeed is 60 min. would be extremely helpful. While most > app developers might not be willing/able to optimize for > battery/mobile, there are already some that are doing a good job. So > there is hope that the new mechanisms would get some traction. > >> > > I know of one large USA mobile operator that is not SPI firewalling > or tracking state for ipv6 mobiels, so this is not a problem for them. > > If operators choose to statefully inspect user traffic, those cost > and limitations are assumed as part of the cost and service definition > from the mobile operator. > > IMHO, SPI FW in ipv6 is not prudent or cost justified in mobile > networks. > > CB > >> Markus > >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf > >> >Of ext Cameron Byrne > >> >Sent: 06 August, 2012 01:22 > >> >To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> >Cc: Randell Jesup; rtcweb@ietf.org; phdgang@gmail.com > >> >Subject: Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics > >> > > >> >On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> ><tireddy@cisco.com> wrote: > >> >>> Fyi. I have not seen any traction for pcp anywhere in the mobile > space. > >> >> > >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-pcp-mobile-deployment-01 > describes > >> >usage of PCP in Mobile Deployments. > >> >> > >> >> --Tiru. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Yep, that's an I-D. > >> > > >> >And, it says things like "Without > >> > the particular considerations , PCP may not provide desirable > >> > outcomes. Some default behaviours may even cause negative > impacts or > >> > system failures in a mobile environment. " > >> > > >> >Got an operators with a timeline on supporting it? How about a > mobile OS > >> >that plans to support PCP, because you will need both. And, that > would be > >> >interesting information. > >> > > >> >I asked around in Vancouver about PCP, and all the operators i > spoke to said > >> >no-plans, no motivation. But, that was a small sample. > >> > > >> >In any event, my only point is that RTCWEB should NOT be counting > on PCP. If > >> >PCP is a tool you have, use it. My point: it is not a tool you > have. > >> > > >> >CB > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >rtcweb mailing list > >> >rtcweb@ietf.org > >> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] NAT behavior heuristics Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)