Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less applications
Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Thu, 22 September 2011 07:45 UTC
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Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:48:14 +0200
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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To: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
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Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less applications
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On 2011-09-21 23:19, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: > > We still don't need RTCP for that - use received RTP sequence number > gaps, if necessary. (yeah it assumes symmetric path and bandwidth, > and bi-dir media) That doesn't really work without RTCP. You are assuming that path load is symmetric so that any loss in A-B direction will be correspondingly reflected on the flow in B-A direction. That is certainly not a common property for IP paths. Thus without RTCP the sender has no knowledge about what packet loss rate his flow is seeing. > > But anyway, there is no means of "dialing-down" G.711. It's not > adaptive. Or are we saying the sender should start skipping samples > and hope the receiver does PLC? Well, switch to a lower bandwidth codec. > > Really, the user will hang up if call quality sucks. We don't need > to be smarter than humans. Well, the complications with G.711 is that there can be quite significant loss before you don't understand anything. But, if I interpret http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3714.txt correctly for reasonably long paths we will in fact talk about such high packet loss rates the call will be use less. However, that is still not the only issue here. I agree that as long as there is a human in the other end listening to the flow that is fine. But if you don't have a human listening the premise of RTCWEB is that you will be able to establish data flows across a path that is in fact not connected to the rendering element in the other end. Thus no user will detect the high packet loss and turn of the flow. It will continue and be a DoS attack on the congested link because this flow takes significantly more than its fair share. That is my issue. We are coming back to the most difficult trade-offs for RTCWEB. Legacy interoperability vs Security. We have several different aspects which makes legacy interoperability with a too simple device a big security risk. Media transmission consent -> Requiring ICE support Path Overload DoS concerns -> Requiring Congestion Control for both media and data. RTCWEB deployment model and concerns for privacy and confenditality -> Media security (what level is still not agreed on) All of the above are clear barriers against legacy interoperability. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive sisalem
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Göran Eriksson AP
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Magnus Westerlund
- [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for keep… Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Colin Perkins
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Colin Perkins
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive Michael Tüxen
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] consent freshness [was RE: STUN for … Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN for keep-alive - RTCP-less appl… Iñaki Baz Castillo