Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
"Roni Even" <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> Sun, 20 April 2014 15:39 UTC
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From: Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>
To: 'Magnus Westerlund' <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, 'Harald Alvestrand' <harald@alvestrand.no>, rtcweb@ietf.org
References: <533E7A50.5040909@ericsson.com> <53425DDE.2030005@alvestrand.no> <534288C2.6010906@ericsson.com> <5342ABBB.9050300@alvestrand.no> <534D4CC4.9040107@ericsson.com>
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 18:38:46 +0300
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
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Hi Magnus, I am OK with the text. Do you think that for Multiparty we should state that a mixed conference (WebRTC and non WebRTC participants) is possible and should also support these rules. Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus > Westerlund > Sent: 15 April, 2014 6:14 PM > To: Harald Alvestrand; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft- > ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage > > Hi, > > I have considered these comments and are okay with modifying the > recommendation. I have modified the proposed text from Harald somewhat. > My proposal is the following: > > > WebRTC implementations of RTP endpoints implemented according to this > memo are expected to support all the topologies described in > [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update] where the RTP endpoints send > and receive unicast RTP packet streams to and from some peer device, > provided that peer can participate in performing congestion control > on the RTP packet streams. The peer device could be another RTP > endpoint, or it could be an RTP middlebox that redistributes the RTP > packet streams to other RTP endpoints. This limitation means that > some of the RTP middlebox-based topologies are not suitable for use > in the WebRTC environment. Specifically: > > o Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT be used, > since they make the use of RTCP for congestion control and quality > of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of > [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). > > o The Relay-Transport Translator (Topo-PtM-Trn-Translator) topology > SHOULD NOT be used because its safe use requires a point to > multipoint congestion control algorithm or RTP circuit breaker, > which has not yet been standardised. > > The following topology may be used, however it has considerations > worth noting: > > o Content modifying MCUs with RTCP termination (Topo-RTCP- > terminating-MCU) MAY be used. Note that in this RTP Topology, RTP > loop detection and identification of active senders is the > responsibility of the WebRTC application; since the clients are > isolated from each other at the RTP layer, RTP cannot assist with > these functions (see section 3.9 of > [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). > > > Please provide feedback on this text! > > Please see further response to questions and comments inline below. > > > On 2014-04-07 15:44, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > > On 04/07/2014 01:15 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > >> On 2014-04-07 10:12, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > > >>> In my (strong) opinion: This recommendation is wrong. > >>> > >>> All central conferencing units that use individual RTP sessions with > >>> clients fall into this category. This includes, I believe, every > >>> single multiuser video conferencing system based on WebRTC in > >>> existence (and there are many of them). > >> Do they? The point of this topology is that it terminates the source > >> identification and hides when it is performing any type of mixing or > >> switching operation. You can perform this with a back to back RTP > >> session style without breaking this property. Just by correctly > >> linking information between the sessions. > > > > Is there a definition for "correctly linking information"? > > In particular, are you thinking of mappings that preserve SSRC? > > Because that's not the ones I'm thinking of. > > The correctly linking information is mostly a question of preserving CNAMEs > across the middlebox to ensure that an end-point can determine > synchronization contexts, and origin if CSRC are used. As we add additional > meta data about streams they may also needs to preserved depending on > scope. Here it becomes a question of how one deals with APPID and MSID. > > Preserving SSRC is a choice, if one does it then loop detection works, if one > doesn't preserve it it doesn't. Preserving it avoids having to remap any > information that have global scope across the legs. > > It becomes a choice on what complexities one needs to handle, common > uniqueness requirements versus remapping I think is the major trade-off. > > > > >> Which means that the individual RTP session is from the > >> identification part inseparable from an SFM or classic RTP mixer. > >> Only the SSRC level loop detection gets impacted. > >> > >> I do understand that people have implemented it this way. > >> Implementation are not necessarily equivalent to recommended practice. > > > > But when there's one common practice, and no recommended practice, > > that might be a gentle hint that there's a reason why people are doing > > it - indeed, it might be worth making it a recommended practice. > > You are welcome to propose changes regarding this to the topologies-update > document in AVTCORE WG. > > >> > >>> I believe the recommendation should be: > >>> > >>> * Content modifying MCUs with RTCP termination > >>> (Topo-RTCP-terminating-MCU) MAY be used. Note that in this scenario, > >>> RTP loop detection and identification of active senders is the > >>> resposibility of the application; since the clients are isolated > >>> from each other at the RTP layer, RTP cannot assist with these functions. > >>> > >> If this topology was without issues, then one would simply remove the > >> bullet, and let it fall under the general clause. However, it clearly > >> needs that warning. Which results in this topology being both > >> positively and negatively treated in regards to the other "you may > >> encounter this topology". > > > > It might need that warning - I'm not sure it's a real issue; loop > > detection is only an issue when you have potential loops, and in a > > single-mixer architecture, that potential is minimal (each endpoint > > knows perfectly well the difference between what it's sourcing and > > what it's receiving). Identification of active senders can be an > > application-layer thing. > > Yes, I agree that in a basic conference application with only a single server > instance this is unlikely to form a loop. If one starts doing more complex things, > including multi-server conferences or PeerConnection Meshes things become > more complex. The later we anyway have removed the RTP loop detection due > to the CNAME being unique on PeerConnection level, but I do think that is the > right trade-off from privacy point of view. > > > > > Anyway, I stand by my statement: SHOULD NOT is the wrong thing to say. > > I do accept this, and are willing to change the recommendation. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty t… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Christian Groves
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multipar… Bernard Aboba