RE: When the IETF can discuss drafts seriously?

[Khaled Omar <[e-mail]>]

> Another very valuable thing to do is just sit and listen to people talk about problems in the IETF, and then see if you can come up with a small, narrowly scoped proposal that will help to solve one of those problems.   Or even an insight you can share on the mailing list that helps to better focus the discussion.

As I said before, I don't mind to join a discussion if the topic is interesting and its information is clear, but I was tired of asking for technical discussion so it will take the drafts forward.


-----Original Message-----
From: ietf [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 6:07 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: ietf; rtgwg
Subject: Re: When the IETF can discuss drafts seriously?

On Dec 20, 2017, at 9:18 AM, Andrew Allen <[e-mail]> wrote:
> So I think your first task is to write a draft that clearly explains the problems and the requirements to solve those problems without addressing the specifics of the solutions you envision and then achieve consensus on the problems and requirements.

I think actually the first task is to meditate on the question of how what I am thinking of doing will benefit the IETF and the IETF's constituents, and how it will benefit me.   The second part is important, because it helps to put things in perspective.   If you find during this meditation that you can think of lots of reasons why the work will benefit me, and aren't able to come up with reasons why it will benefit the IETF or the IETF's constituents, then you need to meditate some more.

Of course, knowing what will benefit the IETF and the IETF's constituents is a hard problem; it's hard even to know who the IETF is or who its constituents are.   If you find that you are kiting a lot of proposals that aren't getting a positive reception from the IETF, there's a good chance that your model of who the IETF is and who its constituents are doesn't agree with the IETF participants who have reacted inhospitably to your proposal.

So the goal of the meditation isn't really to know the answers to the questions you are meditating on.   It's just to familiarize yourself with your own thinking about your relationship to the IETF, so that you can start to notice places where this thinking does not match reality.   As you repeat this process over time, if you do it with an open and skeptical mind, you will probably find yourself more able to come up with ideas that people are interested in and want to work with you on.

Another very valuable thing to do is just sit and listen to people talk about problems in the IETF, and then see if you can come up with a small, narrowly scoped proposal that will help to solve one of those problems.   Or even an insight you can share on the mailing list that helps to better focus the discussion.

Like the meditation I suggested, if you do this for an extended period of time (years), you will eventually have the credibility that is required to do something more ambitious and broadly scoped.   Starting at the beginning with a redesign of the architecture of the Internet is the exact opposite of this approach, and it's why you are experiencing so much resistance.  It's not that the problem isn't interesting—it's that you are building a castle on a foundation of sand.