Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Mon, 22 April 2019 20:38 UTC
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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 15:38:13 -0500
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Cc: secdispatch@ietf.org, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 03:33:22PM -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 3:03 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote: > > Is it fair to characterize this as something of a PGP trust mesh on > > steroids? If not, how does it differ? > > > > (Yes, I do see that your scheme has decentralized device management for > > individuals, which is a bit of a new thing and very welcome.) > > The objective is to give users the power to control their own security > environment. > > This includes but is not limited to the ability to make use of Web-of-Trust > approaches or delegated trust, delegated distrust or a combination of all > three which is actually the approach I think works best. OK, so, all-of-the-above trust? But there's nothing new yet, besides hierarchical[0], and web-of-trust[1], TOFU, and things in between[2] right? Just a new way of doing all-of-the-above? This is not a critique. I think a simple characterization will help. "All of the above on steroids" seems fair. But I do feel that the device management part is separable, even though it's certainly critical for the UX. [0] E.g., PKI, DNSSEC, Kerberos. [1] E.g., PGP. [2] E.g., WebPKI, which isn't exactly hierarchical, and definitely isn't webby as to trust. > The primary focus is enabling real users to manage public key pairs on > their devices without being aware that they are doing it. Securely > establishing a set of public key pairs on each device and providing a > validation path to the user's personal axiom of trust is the main idea > here. Because if we achieve that, we are 80% of the way to securing almost > any communication pattern. Agreed. Vendors will (already do) gladly help you do this within their walled garden, natch. The result is... a bit lame. > Trust topology is something I think we should be opportunistic on and use > every available option. For example: Ah, "opportunistic". TOFU. Sure. > * We meet at an IETF and exchange our master profile fingerprint directly > using the QR code exchange. > * You meet Alice at another meeting and directly exchange credentials using > the QR code exchange. > * I add Alice to the GitHub repo for the project based on your > recommendation. > > * I add my personal banker to my account based on an Extended Validation > certificate authenticating his bank and an assertion issued by the bank > credentialing him as a current employee. OK, so WebPKI, PKI (if we had it, which, well, we do, since DNSSEC is a PKI). > Right now, I am doing everything in JSON and the Mesh Assertion > infrastructure. It is pretty obvious that some of this is SAML territory. > But where should the boundary be and should we make use of the XML SAML > binding or switch it to a JSON encoding? I don't know what the right > decision is there or have time to think about it. It's always tempting to start from scratch... But it's already been done via OAuth/JWT. Don't feel bad for not using SAML/XML. Just make the right choice. Nico --
- [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Richard Barnes
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Michael Richardson
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker