Re: [sip-ops] [dispatch] [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "ping"
Michael Miller <mlm.michael.miller@gmail.com> Mon, 16 August 2010 21:17 UTC
Return-Path: <mlm.michael.miller@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: sip-ops@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: sip-ops@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7783A6AC3; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 2.397
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17HH-wbfciW4; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605483A6ABD; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by vws10 with SMTP id 10so4217175vws.31 for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc :x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=A1WWeN+jA66ljfKs/cX2V56cvQ1cRglw2VCJjmvT5fk=; b=LMNqNvCMxbbyGKHengAlWNE2nPnydUMf4gaZuxnIcH+irvZBdGM2gHejkFSmcnm8WM LnhS7yC8dq2iF6lpXQyKd25U7h7NA8aqu3l7Zmu5sW/eRT4knbho6SeAO89yEMlxpqFn cHWh1V3BNp98zvTBrdUbCw7oBy4zTds89gqO8=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; b=rPMrs4kEOUwe1Rpmyf514rVmGnGwZjj08pL8KE48X/mzH4QMxkZnhIGwopDCbpDps5 GigylktONdgo5SGyfi9B8S73Vwg51dl7qSAVw/602wjlKLZurms/7Ldp+6KxoGn0SsZB k+J+9KrBaKt0LwF+h0XuRDCBUrwaO8WKJaiYU=
Received: by 10.220.122.151 with SMTP id l23mr3365024vcr.162.1281993482887; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.70.112.39] (mobile-166-137-136-078.mycingular.net [166.137.136.78]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a16sm432583vcm.42.2010.08.16.14.18.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
References: <053401cb39dd$44070ee0$cc152ca0$@packetizer.com> <4C690C38.6010804@1and1.ro> <012901cb3d45$5544c880$ffce5980$@packetizer.com> <4C694532.4020109@1and1.ro> <017e01cb3d62$7c171d10$74455730$@packetizer.com>
In-Reply-To: <017e01cb3d62$7c171d10$74455730$@packetizer.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8A306)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message-Id: <A0F5A450-114E-4574-93E3-CEBD07DA9F4F@gmail.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8A306)
From: Michael Miller <mlm.michael.miller@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:18:06 -0400
To: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:54:33 -0700
Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "sip-ops@ietf.org" <sip-ops@ietf.org>, marius zbihlei <marius.zbihlei@1and1.ro>, Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu" <sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [sip-ops] [dispatch] [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "ping"
X-BeenThere: sip-ops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: SIP Operations <sip-ops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-ops>, <mailto:sip-ops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sip-ops>
List-Post: <mailto:sip-ops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sip-ops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-ops>, <mailto:sip-ops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:17:32 -0000
The end the end OPTIONS ping sounds like a great ideal, but does this change this doc from more of a informational/best practice to some thing that would require a change to SIP (like a header or something). I'm new to this Michael L. Miller Sent from my Mobile Device On Aug 16, 2010, at 12:45 PM, "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com> wrote: > Marius, > > There is another important consideration to give to this. The OPTIONS > "ping" we described was intended to be between a device and its next hop. > What you would actually want is an OPTIONS that goes end-to-end. > > I think both need clarification, but I'm now thinking that perhaps we ought > to document these separately. Of course, I'd be happy to work with you on > both. > > Paul > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: marius zbihlei [mailto:marius.zbihlei@1and1.ro] >> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:04 AM >> To: Paul E. Jones >> Cc: sip-ops@ietf.org; sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu; 'Gonzalo >> Salgueiro'; 'Hadriel Kaplan'; dispatch@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "ping" >> >> Paul E. Jones wrote: >>> Marius, >>> >>> It is certainly true that we were focused entirely on out-of-dialog >>> OPTIONS messages when we wrote the draft. I'm certainly not opposed >>> to also including in-dialog OPTIONS exchanges if it fit smoothly within >> the draft. >>> Alternatively, we could create two drafts. >>> >>> Would you like to draft some initial text for in-dialog and see if it >>> makes sense to include it in this same draft or a separate one? If in >>> the same draft, then perhaps in-dialog and OOD would be two separate >> sections? >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >> Hello again, >> >> I would gladly draft some initial text around this idea, but I am a little >> torn apart between what I expect from the draft(and current >> implementations) and what previous standards say. >> >> Quote from RFC 3261 >> 12.2.2 UAS Behavior "Requests that do not change in any way the state of a >> dialog may be received within a dialog (for example, an OPTIONS request). >> They are processed as if they had been received outside the dialog." >> >> Along with other texts[1], this means that in-dialog OPTIONS requests >> should be treated as OOD(also the thread I have linked seems to suggest >> that). But I know for certain that lots of implementors do return a 481, >> and several services rely on that error code to check if a dialog is still >> running. I know about SIP Session Timers but using OPTIONS ping like >> this(to discover if a dialog has finished) has some benefits(like the >> proxy being able to terminate a call , which is not possible using SST >> [2]), and more and more this looks like a "de facto" behavior. >> >> With this in mind, I have to ask the question: Should we allow (or >> inforce) the 481 response for a in-dialog OPTIONS request(if the dialog >> does not exits)(this is what I personally want and many implementors >> already do), or should we respond with a 200 OK regardless if the dialog >> exists or not?! >> >> Thank you in advance for answering this. >> >> [1] RFC 5057 section 5.3: "OPTIONS does not belong to any usage. Only >> those failures discussed in Section 5.1 and Section 5.2 that destroy >> entire dialogs will have any effect on the usages sharing the dialog with >> a failed OPTIONS request." >> >> This in fact might prove usefull, as a failed in-dialog OPTIONS request >> will guaranty that the dialog will not be destroyed >> >> [2] http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4028.txt >> 8.3. Session Expiration >> >> When the current time equals or passes the session expiration for a >> session, the proxy MAY remove associated call state, and MAY free any >> resources associated with the call. Unlike the UA, it MUST NOT send a BYE. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: marius zbihlei [mailto:marius.zbihlei@1and1.ro] >>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:00 AM >>>> To: Paul E. Jones >>>> Cc: sip-ops@ietf.org; sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu; Gonzalo >>>> Salgueiro; Hadriel Kaplan >>>> Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "ping" >>>> >>>> Paul E. Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> Folks, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gonzalo and I produced an Internet Draft aiming at trying to bring >>>>> some consistency to the way in which SIP user agents implement an >>>>> >>>> OPTIONS "ping" >>>> >>>>> procedure. It seems that a very large number of vendors do this, >>>>> but unfortunately, there seems to be little consistency. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Initially, we positioned the document as a standards track RFC, >>>>> since this essentially builds on RFC 3261. However, there was some >>>>> pushback from folks in the IETF for a variety of reasons, not the >>>>> least of which is the fact that there is no working group chartered >>>>> to do the work. We don't feel this one draft warrants the creation >>>>> of a working >>>>> >>>> group. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> So, we've got three options we can consider: >>>>> >>>>> 1) Forge ahead outside of a working group >>>>> >>>>> 2) Change the status of the draft to Informational >>>>> >>>>> 3) Forget about the draft and let every SIP device do it the way >>>>> >>>> they >>>> >>>>> want, throwing hope of consistency out the window >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Yeah, you can tell I prefer not to go for the third option.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In any case, I'd like to get feedback from the on the SIP operators >>>>> and SIP implementers lists. Do you think it's worth trying to >>>>> address >>>>> >>>> this issue? >>>> >>>>> If so, which option do you think we should pursue? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I have read the draft and as far I can tell it addresses OPTIONS >>>> outside a dialog. I know that this has already been discussed on this >>>> mailing list[1], but there still are many vendors/SIP implementors >>>> that use a in- dialog OPTIONS to figure out if a dialog is still >>>> running(if not the UAS "will" respond with a 481- Call does not >>>> exist). By reading the comments and the RFC I know this is wrong(a >>>> UAS might return a 200 OK even if the dialog does not exist), but I >>>> think this enters into the "3) Forget about the draft and let every >>>> SIP device do it the way they want, throwing hope of consistency out >> the window " category. >>>> >>>> My first reaction is also to address this topic in the draft. What do >>>> you think? >>>> >>>> Marius >>>> >>>> [1]https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/sip-implementors/2008- >>>> May/019278.html >>>> >>>>> Note that we're certainly open to feedback on the draft. I'd prefer >>>>> it to have a few more "MUST" statements in the text, rather than >>>>> "SHOULD". But, we need to find that right balance: >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-options-ping >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sip-implementors mailing list >>>>> Sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu >>>>> https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/cucslists/listinfo/sip-implementors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
- [sip-ops] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Brian Rosen
- Re: [sip-ops] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Cullen Jennings
- Re: [sip-ops] [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "pin… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "pin… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] [Sip-implementors] SIP OPTIONS "pin… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] [dispatch] [Sip-implementors] SIP O… Michael Miller
- Re: [sip-ops] [dispatch] [Sip-implementors] SIP O… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] [dispatch] [Sip-implementors] SIP O… Michael Miller
- Re: [sip-ops] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Paul E. Jones
- Re: [sip-ops] [dispatch] SIP OPTIONS "ping" Marius Zbihlei