Re: [smartobjectdir] "Management" vs "control and telemetry"
Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> Sun, 09 October 2011 22:01 UTC
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:00:50 -0400
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References: <B6C7A935-C40D-4E3E-B6C9-7179EDE0C99C@vigilsec.com> <8BE7D920-176C-4A16-AEB3-D525B6396060@cisco.com> <95201571-B862-4FAA-B3BA-76FE0E62F608@cisco.com> <DC512462-0FD5-40F0-B6A4-9F580133E3DE@cisco.com> <CAHxHggf53Veca_Sso3fy3o60URNb5eM1p2VqCa+3iiCgW=UjGw@mail.gmail.com> <D605DDB6-B09D-4A37-83C0-BC7663C2C0E9@cisco.com> <78B90A3F-91AC-4124-82F7-70162A442913@cisco.com> <CAHxHggfyv-O3bqBqKq+p3qoBY2EOeTZrBryskf0OB+omKPEwfA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>
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Cc: smartobjectdir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [smartobjectdir] "Management" vs "control and telemetry"
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:-) On Oct 9, 2011, at 5:11 PM, Vint Cerf wrote: > If everyone interpreted my "management" suggestion as identical to > SNMP, give me a break! > > I was commenting on terminology and not invoking any particular protocol. > > sheesh! > > v > > > On 10/9/11, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote: >> Let me step out on a limb here, one which Ersue and Dan will very quickly >> try to saw off. I'm of the opinion that our "Management" protocols, SNMP and >> NetConf, are very poorly suited to the world of Smart Objects, and that if >> we simply describe this as "management" the Internet Community will dismiss >> it as a previously solved problem. >> >> Let me give you two relatively simple examples. >> >> You will recall that when we were developing SNMP, we talked a lot about the >> Internet Toaster, and that Epilogue developed a Toaster MIB (which can still >> be found of you ask Google) to demonstrate the operation of it. The premise >> of the Toaster MIB is that there is some central controller; someone places >> bread into the toaster, wanders off to the toaster controller, and the >> toaster controller might do a SET to put actuate the toaster, and then might >> monitor is SNMP objects to see how things were going. >> >> The simplest example is what I call the Internet Light Bulb, something on >> which I have an internet draft half written. Let's imagine I have a single >> light bulb (or a multicast group full of lightbulbs, but for the moment it >> is one bulb) that is operated by two (or more) switches. Electrically, >> that's not hard - >> >> ,-. >> +-----|||---------( )----------------+ >> | `-' | >> | /------------------------- | >> +-----/ /----+ >> -------------------------/ >> >> I have two switches, each with two positions. If they are both in the same >> position current flows, and if they are in different positions current >> doesn't flow. >> >> In a building control environment (Echelon makes this product, and I am >> describing their implementation), each switch has an identity and each light >> bulb has an identity. When someone throws a switch, the switch announces "I >> am X, and I command Y to go to the state 'ON'". Y receives the command, >> verifies that it is still Y (all the other light bulbs receive it too, and >> note that they are not Y), verifies that X is authorized to give it that >> command, and turns itself on. It then announces "I am Y, and I am in the >> state 'ON'". Each other switch X' receives the announcement, decides whether >> it cares what state Y is in, and if so records that Y is in fact on. >> Subsequently, if someone else tells another switch to turn Y on, it will do >> nothing; Y is already on. But if someone throws any of the switches to turn >> Y off, the switch will say "I am X', and I think Y should be off". >> >> Here's a slightly more complex example: a thermostat. Somewhere, there is, >> let's imagine, an energy management system. It is being told by the utility >> that between this time and that the price is HIGH and is otherwise LOW. It >> has a policy that includes telling the thermostat (at times this and that) >> to change its thresholds. The thermostat, in turn, has two thresholds. If >> the temperature falls below one temperature it will turn on the heat, and if >> the temperature goes above that it will turn off the heat. If the >> temperature rises above a second threshold it will turn on the air >> conditioning, and if it falls below, it will turn the air conditioning off. >> When the price is LOW, the two thresholds might be at 71 and 73 degrees >> Fahrenheit respectively; when the price is HIGH, they might be at 68 and 78. >> So the EMS might set the thresholds from time to time using whatever >> protocol it likes, perhaps NetConf; when the thermostat observes the >> temperature crossing one threshold or the other, it could report that to the >> EMS and let the EMS send a command to the heater or the air conditioner; >> more likely, it will announce that it thinks the temperature is "Cold", >> "Nice", or "Hot", and the heater and the air conditioner will observe that >> their policy is that when it is "Cold" or "Hot" (respectively) it policy >> (controlled by the EMS) is to turn itself on, and when it is "Nice" to turn >> itself off. >> >> The information that needs to be exchanged, in each case, is the source's >> identity ("I am X"), the target's identity ("I think that Y..."), a variable >> name ("on/off status"), and a value ("on"). It also needs to announce a >> method (it is reporting current state or it is requesting a state change), >> and it needs whatever information is necessary to prove its identity. >> Current equipment used in embedded systems - the stuff our proposed system >> is trying to displace - does this (Echelon's equipment) in a total of 11K >> ROM and 2-4K RAM for the entire system, never mind the management >> interpreter. I know of no SNMP implementation that can do that, nor any XML >> implementation, and they certainly don't use one protocol to read >> information and another to write it. So for the purpose at hand, protocols I >> am seeing presented as The One True Religion have implementers of existing >> commercial systems telling me while giggling in their sleaves that they have >> "no fear of real competition" from an IETF/IRTF implementation. That's >> quote/unquote. >> >> I could imagine the thing being in JavaScript Object Notation, a notation >> designed along the lines of RFC 5545, or a variety of other approaches. My >> point is S-I-M-P-L-E, and designed to enable conversations among actors in >> the game but without religious dogma about who is a controller and who is >> controlled. They are actors with state, and an actor might be a controller >> or a controllee in subsequent milliseconds.
- [smartobjectdir] Charter Russ Housley
- [smartobjectdir] FW: Charter Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] FW: Charter Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter JP Vasseur
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter Vint Cerf
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] Charter Fred Baker
- [smartobjectdir] "Management" vs "control and tel… Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] "Management" vs "control and… Vint Cerf
- Re: [smartobjectdir] "Management" vs "control and… Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] "Management" vs "control and… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- [smartobjectdir] meeting? Jari Arkko
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Polk, William T.
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Zach Shelby
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Joe Touch
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Richard Shockey
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Jari Arkko
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] meeting? Polk, William T.
- [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Polk, William T.
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ralph Droms
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ralph Droms
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Geoff Mulligan (IETF)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ralph Droms
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Polk, William T.
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Jari Arkko
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Fred Baker
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [smartobjectdir] 83 SOD - Breakfast ? Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)