Re: [therightkey] Impact on issue processes

Chris Palmer <palmer@google.com> Thu, 25 October 2012 23:26 UTC

Return-Path: <palmer@google.com>
X-Original-To: therightkey@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: therightkey@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08FF21F88D0 for <therightkey@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.977
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3GDTcSPZQw4j for <therightkey@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com (mail-wg0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA3F21F88CF for <therightkey@ietf.org>; Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id dr13so1208298wgb.13 for <therightkey@ietf.org>; Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; bh=HqplM/swclSHc8uBLMzh9fM1tPkKqMAusjUlnskNzNw=; b=bsAycqPQYo8WpkrtdMuDxSuS6N9TsoFbcT5VobOoUNiOZhvNRRAbNT1tSd2iQP3NYe kjzf6+a5s7acHB4Cv3LtuxaWwHL1NglPe58+tGkQwAniH66OJw1A3XzH4oo2TO9KrrHF pdGZOEpTyCVU5sVeR0qnlXVxTjhv+SwkFW1Cml6jTfQhoAXd4n6O6E2fY0SYC9PW5omy 37bZBDHGlnVQK6GglUMILIRKVd5hGe5vrOwOp2i3ZLhQqkT2g/rr0amfepcqKOhyIXgz lzYDiv8RaIUZ5Z0C7brbyzMwfR1pF6vyzkNoMm3CpBLv8HaEnl3jiT6qdXqbemtEZJ65 T2fg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record :x-gm-message-state; bh=HqplM/swclSHc8uBLMzh9fM1tPkKqMAusjUlnskNzNw=; b=EkMEeRNkqZT202t1DwbRPjaVcVXnfDDTKCzBF/XycLzNRqpEcEiPdaGhEdI+wEgVeH MWMPNj6PZD6/IjD5Ru3ejBPSDfZHhT/OkETPBQ3Pkl0zR15C22+Qz7ippvkL67nrZA1c wAMKmMk9hf2wteE1wDYWRFV40qQ4MkV9yMBxZR9uuF0NZqbFicBXpjtnYVgQP7lsz5zI l9+asoLXV2y3u654uEPcsgzF8t4ANnpdJ73fZOo1SSpbvTcuECWbkTNPl0HVQ7NU5XN0 fsVQydFuF/o8mTE/f4inV3MCW4FqdtpNWk8IpvfZ5tJs+ZPj7t0wSGPp4zcgsla3Ck6q xekw==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.180.102.131 with SMTP id fo3mr902269wib.1.1351207563321; Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.223.64.199 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:02 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <544B0DD62A64C1448B2DA253C0114146069D5FC685@TUS1XCHEVSPIN33.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM>
References: <7500672F-5BDE-4EBE-ABC3-1AFEF2972D95@vpnc.org> <70E51AD3-D937-416E-8F3C-60B6156190DC@vpnc.org> <CAMm+LwgSrwBO=cD5zQ5G1PG0YyC7gvG7cWGqhL1KhPectG6Y+w@mail.gmail.com> <DDDF8726-F491-46AB-9A4A-AFB99006A393@vpnc.org> <42F98BCB-17F8-427E-8E9D-33A04978A339@vpnc.org> <CAMm+LwihwHFYcAkJvjRe7Js9AJkS8s6ZooxJnE526UOsWHGCuw@mail.gmail.com> <A09B4DFF-936C-488C-9915-B5F9A579FA1F@vpnc.org> <CABrd9STFeAxxmFDCZMkREXyEcKbeeQbF8ZeESXcoKPnkckdZwQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMm+Lwg6EoSy-p7US0uZtKjxGHF39iH-0mvxg-hJ+AqK4vXL-A@mail.gmail.com> <CABrd9SRa9Ye9gkjpaQ+PqQyay9NKJB__dkDwOBwPHvw16dkTRg@mail.gmail.com> <544B0DD62A64C1448B2DA253C0114146069D3FBAE8@TUS1XCHEVSPIN33.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM> <CAOuvq22PMSq2sAmUBfJcWu6LhEdCA3jKteu38m4UuHbykp7xZw@mail.gmail.com> <544B0DD62A64C1448B2DA253C0114146069D5FC685@TUS1XCHEVSPIN33.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:26:02 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOuvq21Pt0+uJFEJ==Qc=rUAeSEfGpLA=5UKy-_aBJ4bdWi+xg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Chris Palmer <palmer@google.com>
To: Rick Andrews <Rick_Andrews@symantec.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-System-Of-Record: true
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnN389GCrgnnbE+ogBj4vDi5vZ6QKdy5irhz8HSJotqzVmdIbsYgCZ1eLK+LNsTY9a9InHQOavR0t8sjRekrfcfiamNQTawWHKN2A9xmdLjHT+N7hBOtJblDgiqgrsvUt7AYveNdR5vEwF3ezPSWKDAMlqtljx8KmD8mnnGMfawcJFbpR4G2LfuocDfKNECbR0o+w5A
Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>, "therightkey@ietf.org" <therightkey@ietf.org>, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Subject: Re: [therightkey] Impact on issue processes
X-BeenThere: therightkey@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: <therightkey.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/therightkey>, <mailto:therightkey-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/therightkey>
List-Post: <mailto:therightkey@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:therightkey-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/therightkey>, <mailto:therightkey-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:26:05 -0000

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Rick Andrews <Rick_Andrews@symantec.com> wrote:

> It's going to cost engineering time and money for CAs to implement CT. The bean counters and execs who control the purse strings are going to ask what they'll get for their $$$. They'll ask "so if I spend this money, we won't get hacked, right?" and I would have to say no, it's no guarantee that we wouldn't get hacked, but if we got hacked we would know about it.

And the attackers have much less incentive to hack you. That is a
really big win. Obviously the cost is not $0, but the payoff is
significant. In a CT world, what does Comodo Hacker gain by causing
mis-issuance? It's a looooot less than now. Tell your bean counters
that.

> CT is *a* solution, but by no means the only possible solution. Is there another solution that might be less expensive and intrusive to implement? CAA might get us 80% of the way there for a fraction of the cost. DANE and cert pinning also help, and might be simpler to implement.

Obviously I like key pinning, but I consider CT (or a public log
solution generally) as the "true", long-term solution. Pinning would
probably continue to be of complementary value, as might
DANE/CAA/whatever else. But I consider that CT is where we want to be.

And other people are already offering to take on the really big costs.
Tell your bean counters that, too: It's a collaborative effort, and
other people have already started paying. It might be that all you
have to do is implement somebody else's design and talk to somebody
else's service (although obviously helping out sooner benefits you
too).