IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft

"Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com> Wed, 18 November 2020 02:20 UTC

Return-Path: <jholland@akamai.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDD33A1299 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:20:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iATqnHilKBt4 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:20:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 077F73A1294 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:20:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0122332.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0AI2GqGF012292; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:20:40 GMT
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=GWkmp3+rBXnarKs9X2ty82Dw5i22FR3wjKDaj58kN0k=; b=olw2iqim/JIgxQgzSK65BRS01vu6zs3t9R3wlJsFCeg+/d8PMoV+TwpFbco8/loLTT3G yF79udkU/iSc2PrPOMTvAiA3ENBrlraJVKMxZpMEIeB1Z6k5SBnYkf5Luydx4D+o8UYt mkhGxgBe/2J2RRrYw55v4l7S3hM80SzeQkCZwkjGVzTfIbIFkQIPELUOQxxTu4zXOWLt RhilpuvYMLK9ynh1tJItGEXdApgNJ4xh/Xwxw+7umg1ZdkVSVWnW8qjJfHHteviRKF+7 GbuDjdWGQ9zQyUFVEfMmIhKy3Xpgi8UVGTVvdJLDLeYfK95aNv038EUMRlY0wiyOrfiZ Qw==
Received: from prod-mail-ppoint4 (a72-247-45-32.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [72.247.45.32] (may be forged)) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 34t85wgw1g-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:20:39 +0000
Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0AI2KC3u029598; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:20:39 -0500
Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.116]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 34tbf30afa-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:20:38 -0500
Received: from ustx2ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.124) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:20:38 -0600
Received: from ustx2ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.124]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.124]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.007; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:20:37 -0600
From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
To: Pete Heist <pete@heistp.net>, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
CC: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft
Thread-Index: AQHWvEa9WLInGyNW0USB+dYd8jC3lanMXVEAgADIfAD//+LrAA==
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:20:37 +0000
Message-ID: <5FAF8D38-369B-4642-AAD2-BD5F7E430542@akamai.com>
References: <b6bc81f5-e1f2-e226-1612-7f1070290bbd@mti-systems.com> <9CC37D46-3783-47DD-A1C8-7106EF437642@akamai.com> <f6ebc50de8d7ee42621a8db673f05d17ed8694c4.camel@heistp.net>
In-Reply-To: <f6ebc50de8d7ee42621a8db673f05d17ed8694c4.camel@heistp.net>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.42.20101102
x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <B10C94EB67F3DC41B63D5BED6B7F9D93@akamai.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-11-17_15:2020-11-17, 2020-11-17 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011180013
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-11-17_15:2020-11-17, 2020-11-17 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011180012
X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.32) smtp.mailfrom=jholland@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint4
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/J1v8SbImV7sN_OFSE9kZVLyxtcY>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:20:42 -0000

Hi Pete,

On 11/17/20, 12:04 PM, "Pete Heist" <pete@heistp.net> wrote:
> One addition to this is the fact that when tunneled traffic traverses
> fq_codel, since the 5-tuple for all of the tunnel's inner flows is the
> same, that places them in one fq_codel queue, leading to the same
> safety problem when L4S and non-L4S flows meet. So, while single queue
> RFC3168 AQMs or hash collisions are one way for that to happen,
> tunneled traffic may be a more likely way. We recently added a test
> scenario using Wireguard through fq_codel to cover that case, which for
> some reason I didn't think to try earlier:
>
> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests/#unsafety-in-tunnels-through-rfc3168-bottlenecks
>
> That should probably be covered in the guidance in relation to FQ
> classic ECN as well...

Thanks Pete, I 100% agree.  I knew I was forgetting something.

I meant to include exactly that sentiment and link, and I thought it
was a very helpful point when you posted it a few weeks ago, but several
hundred messages later it slipped my mind while writing this up.  Thanks
for getting it in there.

Best regards,
Jake

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email