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Re: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft

Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Wed, 18 November 2020 06:44 UTC

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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: "Holland, Jake" <jholland=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Pete Heist <pete@heistp.net>, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
CC: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 06:44:04 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/RIPS9b3OFSVa0dS1Ih7C3_8XvKk>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft
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Hi Jake and Pete + others

I try to understand this input, thanks for raining this BTW. 

I interpret this as: 
1) Flow queue AQMs don't work properly across tunnels, as flow isolation based om 5-tuple does not work
2) L4S flows can potentially (or will) get an unfair share as a consequence of #1 above because the bootleneck only implement a RFC3168 ECN marking. 

Is this understanding correct ?

/Ingemar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Holland, Jake
> Sent: den 18 november 2020 03:21
> To: Pete Heist <pete@heistp.net>; Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
> Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] L4S operational guidance draft
> 
> Hi Pete,
> 
> On 11/17/20, 12:04 PM, "Pete Heist" <pete@heistp.net> wrote:
> > One addition to this is the fact that when tunneled traffic traverses
> > fq_codel, since the 5-tuple for all of the tunnel's inner flows is the
> > same, that places them in one fq_codel queue, leading to the same
> > safety problem when L4S and non-L4S flows meet. So, while single queue
> > RFC3168 AQMs or hash collisions are one way for that to happen,
> > tunneled traffic may be a more likely way. We recently added a test
> > scenario using Wireguard through fq_codel to cover that case, which
> > for some reason I didn't think to try earlier:
> >
> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=aaf3845d-f568bd70-aaf3c4c6-
> 8692d
> > c8284cb-99cc9ade2897f933&q=1&e=b25cd448-5648-4fc4-8858-
> a85d6c2df9b0&u=
> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fheistp%2Fl4s-tests%2F%23unsafety-in-
> tunnels
> > -through-rfc3168-bottlenecks
> >
> > That should probably be covered in the guidance in relation to FQ
> > classic ECN as well...
> 
> Thanks Pete, I 100% agree.  I knew I was forgetting something.
> 
> I meant to include exactly that sentiment and link, and I thought it was a very
> helpful point when you posted it a few weeks ago, but several hundred
> messages later it slipped my mind while writing this up.  Thanks for getting it in
> there.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jake
>

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