Re: [alto] Topic B - maintenance of ALTO protocol // RE: June 20, 2023 meeting minutes and discussion working links

["Y. Richard Yang" <[e-mail]>]

Hi Luis,

Thank you so much for starting this thread on Topic B. I feel that this is
a crucial topic for the WG to investigate. Please see below.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 5:18 PM LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <
[e-mail]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Related to Topic B on maintenance of ALTO, as a way of summary of what has
> been discussed during the last weeks, we could have two major sub-topics:
>
> 1/ extension of ALTO to consider operational simplicity. Here fits the
> proposal of introducing BGP communities in ALTO. The rationale is that
> operators use BGP communities quite often as mechanism for applying
> policies and determining certain behaviors on the IP addresses grouped in
> the form of communities. This seems quite useful as well at the time of
> exposing associated information (metrics, topology, etc) as enabled by
> ALTO. An initial draft can be found here:
> https://github.com/luismcontreras/alto-bgp-communities
>
> The plan is to generate version -01 for IETF 117.
>
> I like this subtopic! I have adopted a view that ALTO should be divided
into 2 layers: a concept/abstraction layer and a transport layer built on
top of the concept layer. I feel that there is great work validating the
concept layer, for example, the concepts of distance, ranking, say in the
flow director, padis work. For transport later, the WG can be flexible and
provide multiple transport mechanisms. BGP communities are an excellent,
well defined framework to serve as a transport (of both existing alto
concepts/abstractions) and also existing networking abstractions). Good
direction.

>
>
> 2/ security aspects of ALTO. This has been discussed in both one of the
> interim meetings (see
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2023-alto-05/materials/slides-interim-2023-alto-05-sessa-security-aspects-regarding-alto-luis-00)
> and one ad-hoc discussion meeting (
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/alto/HnhO5H5xy4hBGtfm3JI7-K9mq3Y/).
> The rationale for this activity is to improve the security around the
> deployment and operation of ALTO in production networks. As commented
> during the interim, there are a number of security issues documented so
> far, like:
>
>    - A high-level discussion of security issues in the ALTO problem
>    statement [RFC5693]
>    - Unwanted information disclosure risks, as well as specific
>    security-related requirements in the ALTO requirements document [RFC6708].
>    - Issues related ALTO server discovery in [RFC7286]
>    - Identified cases for ALTO deployments in [RFC7971]
>    - Security considerations in the remaining RFCs
>
> However, new security concerns emerge from deployments, such as:
>
>    - Obfuscation of PIDs, and the handling of them in scenarios with
>    multiple ALTO clients
>    - Mechanisms for isolation of the ALTO server from direct client
>    interaction
>    - Secure retrieval of information from external components (e.g.,
>    probes, etc)
>    - etc
>
> A potential first step could be to document these new security
> considerations and then concentrate on those not solved representing
> relevant threats in ALTO operation.
>

This is also a great topic for this thread. It can benefit greatly with
aspects by Ayoub and team as well.

Richard

> There could be other relevant topics related to the maintenance of ALTO
> part from the two commented above.
>
>
>
> Any further ideas on this respect?
>
>
>
> Of course for those interested on the topics above, please comment.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> Luis
>
>
>
> *De:* alto <[e-mail]> *En nombre de * Y. Richard Yang
> *Enviado el:* miércoles, 21 de junio de 2023 1:47
> *Para:* IETF ALTO <[e-mail]>
> *Asunto:* [alto] June 20, 2023 meeting minutes and discussion working
> links
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> As suggested by Ayoub, Jordi and others during the weekly meeting today,
> starting from today, the note taker will not only update the meeting
> minutes page (
> https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/blob/main/meetings-ietf-alto/ietf-alto-2023.md),
> but also provide a text summary and comments, if appropriate, on the
> meeting. So below are my quick comments and the full meeting minutes are
> below; the archive is at the link above.
>
>
>
> Regarding comments, the most important item that I, as a note taker, take
> away is the wonderful discussion about how to organize future work
> discussions. In particular, the participants divided the potential work
> into 4 areas, and created 4 github issues. We also created a common Google
> doc to allow systematic write up. The links to them are below.
>
>
>
> In particular, the four areas and their coordinators are:
>
> - A: Integration of data sources and their exposures; coordinator: Jordi,
> Luis and Kai
>
> - B: Maintenance of ALTO protocol; coordinator: Luis, Richard
>
> - C: Security and trust; coordinators: Ayoub, Junichi, Motoyoshi
>
> - D: New architectural extensions; coordinators: Roland and Sabine
>
>
> We sure can adjust the coordinators. So so, please let me know, and we can
> adjust the page. The plan is that the coordinators will closely with the
> chairs (Qin and Med) to make concrete progress. The coordinators will kick
> off the discussions.
>
>
>
> Richard as note taker on June 20, 2023
>
>
>
> ==== Meeting Minutes Text ====
>
> *IETF, ALTO Meeting: June 20, 2023*
>
> *Agenda:*
>
>    - Transport and OAM documents
>
>
>    - Transport:
>       https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/draft-ietf-alto-new-transport/issues
>
>
>    - OAM: https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/draft-ietf-alto-oam-yang/issues
>    - ALTO Future Work:
>    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/alto/uIFD6Dhikfu4J4PYcpJTbsiXbnE/
>
>    https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/blob/main/FutureALTO/alto-direction-of-work.md
>    - Preps for IETF 117:
>
>
>    - Drafts and presentations that the ALTO group plans to work on
>       - Agenda
>
>
>    - New revision of Green Networking Metrics draft in opsawg:
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cx-opsawg-green-metrics/
>
> *Minutes*
>
> *Note taker: Richard
>
>    - Charter documents: transport and OAM updates
>
>
>    - OAM: Jensen and Med had a discussion on the draft and submit the
>       revision to IESG. The document is now waiting for AD review.
>       - Transport: Richard sent a note to Martin Thompson, to provide the
>       justification on introducing server push using PUSH PROMISE. It includes
>       two basic reasonings: lower load, and the feature is optional; Kai updated
>       that Med sent two pull requests and sent the latest version for AD review,
>       and wait for updates.
>
>
>    - Updates on future work on ALTO
>
>
>    - Overview: Jordi started with an update on the planning: Please
>       follow the ongoing conversation on the WG mailing list initiated by Sabine,
>       engaged by Jordi and Luis; the WG welcomes conversations by all; please
>       socialize the ideas; leadership is important and please take ownership;
>       this WG meets each week, and we do not know any other IETF WG that meets
>       each week, but because we meet each week, we do not use the mailing list,
>       which may appear to be inactive by those not attending the weekly meeting.
>       - Individual topics:
>
>
>    - Jordi summarized that from the mailing list, item 3 appears to be
>          the most preferred; please do discussions, propose a charter item and then
>          write documents; The goal is to go to 117 and should be prepared.
>          - Richard commented that one of his focus points will be on data
>          sources, which can be more informational than standard. Luis advised that
>          there can be two types of approaches: bottom-up (individuals propose
>          ideas), and top-down (chairs/AD guidance).
>          - Luis suggests that we should take a look at chair-mentioned
>          items such as BGP communities, and security; mid-term: such as data
>          sources, please go to the mailing list.
>
>
>    - Work organization: Meeting notes work plan: Ayoub gave the
>    suggestion that note taker shares the note to the mailing list, some kind
>    of annotated meeting minutes. Roland clarified that the sharing notes can
>    be double sent, or summary/highlights, or up to note taker. Organizing
>    discussions: Luis/Jordi: email as record, GitHub tickets to organize; Jordi
>    creates 4 tickets, and puts links to doc.
>    - Issues, leads, and working documents:
>
>
>    - Topic A:
>
>
>    - GitHub issue: #48
>          <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/48>
>          - Topic coordinator: Jordi, Kai
>
>
>    - Topic B:
>
>
>    - GitHub: #49 <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/49>
>          - Topic coordinator: Roland, Sabine
>
>
>    - Topic C:
>
>
>    - GitHub: #50 <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/50>
>          - Topic coordinator: Ayoub, Junichi, Motoyoshi
>
>
>    - Topic D:
>
>
>    - GitHub: #51 <https://github.com/ietf-wg-alto/wg-materials/issues/51>
>          - Coordinator: Luis, Jordi
>
>
>    - Discussion Google doc:
>
>
>    -
>          https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rpziU7NZEE8f84XkJSjMhEIHUA5G7rXkGB5c_7UFxUY/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
>    - Goals: Enabling conversations and concrete documents (compute, edge
>       service, etc), need to focus; real good way to make progress is
>       internet-draft (ID) as ground truth, from dynamic to stable, with focus on
>       writing drafts for concrete results).
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
>  =====================================
>
> | Y. Richard Yang <[e-mail]>   |
>
> | Professor of Computer Science       |
>
> | http://www.cs.yale.edu/~yry/        |
>
>  =====================================
>
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-- 
Richard