Re: [arch-d] Proposed IAB program on Wholistic Human-Oriented Discussions on Identity Systems (WHODIS)

Christopher Wood <caw@heapingbits.net> Mon, 17 July 2023 16:09 UTC

Return-Path: <caw@heapingbits.net>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D07C151717 for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:09:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.094
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b="X29rhFNW"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b="KWdav/Ig"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2jC7ACDR4bXE for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92B43C15DD6A for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C775C0154; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:09:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:09:02 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type :date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1689610141; x=1689696541; bh=bIlTX9GLZcl2agVsTS7ILSKfc OBvHr2LqiSm5kGxLXw=; b=X29rhFNW81fXtwOKcF5ENApU6wT9zQiiRMw/5j205 vZPSsKx3F0TgeyR+2YEFi11TAxZYgLTQc4+fJNXKRihvg8eBn2CnWkt58sPvhx9V bKKuUUne8ZsEFMWZR3sr/AYcaIB5NKIanRw2eJhQq0bNZrPV0d+BUrmniu5retP0 wB8jy66/K1+3/6rnMs6qGQJiJW/Og4vF+Us1fT41HahQtR5fzrZI01hZkunkZOo9 u+0iirrE3wokMdo/M0UX88gM+WUj/ApSC6M4xOPUN7jI756Mp0WAaWLxbahsazgT mLz7Jwm5bQMi/2oGsDTIQLxESPFrlso+wmQiNrxK8eIXQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1689610141; x=1689696541; bh=bIlTX9GLZcl2agVsTS7ILSKfcOBvHr2LqiS m5kGxLXw=; b=KWdav/IgK2JzvhC2Qe8mSaK5vM4K1DkcxUOsUCtZtMXbnSzbyD7 OzKlWqpU6BUIDdpv5t2o554sPc28to1S2dX4GLmRrlydg5PRr9L2ZWaBhmBemeCD ngVZBeEw2B3eGpxT8xf2yDoYfB0F60G6xhxx0obXYfSDYPB7lvauiaWeE0QRpHHh TgOHsngBpT5GKxuHbRjwekQ3xD8DnnfFeUOnvYaGkDTTkvwvdWAagPVmazssOt9F hFuGGf9njutyongz3hsmH9McJgNBjtep0cVtMvAH4PDnTPEuQcUd2CUuhKkWJfqX EHe2a+tZ08WggMntxEY5fQA75SWfLYr1TwA==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:nWe1ZOvOH3QVTS52PqJjJ40Xmv-RTyTj2mjg5083Xkqo4vCv5kGQoA> <xme:nWe1ZDdYDNhGFwmG7dWmSGOCyuy8zEz-9LFEyCwWlhVPNgPdAp1hJbUbvPbcuJeMP yDFQM6W9rZBHaCxLBo>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:nWe1ZJxRlxAa7JnpyfWLHxvvaQqK9flbkQGpCJkxftS68g4qcX-gsacyzPgNTmtOec6nO5nfKhZa1Yk7mywG1AXXQcpSFl0GJwEWuZvzxspPEfzQCGuujw>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedrgedvgdeljecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffvefgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeevhhhrihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougcuoegtrgifsehh vggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeileffgfffgfekfe ffuddutdffkeetteevhfdvveeltedvudefheefueffleeuvdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghith hsrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:nWe1ZJNTc8x8hW4l4o6IiwnOOkaF_vX9wJvVDDcDVctkYBAvlwJg_A> <xmx:nWe1ZO9r-GuH4b_zvPxAcnYBSmZj1N2tHmg-HZ_gji3tOLMnk1NjFw> <xmx:nWe1ZBVL-WwIJyoxV4kV0p2QOiI2m8fGDvIqK7GIT5ohkl88tT2nDg> <xmx:nWe1ZDGGCvd792UGrtHWRWzAC5OpLhti4L5vVt0IPCr1iJodtxHkAw>
Feedback-ID: i2f494406:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.3\))
From: Christopher Wood <caw@heapingbits.net>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBMhkgG=x11oW718ACw1+k794wYhhuGMP19QjE2o1qxo=w@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 12:09:01 -0400
Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <A47CF243-B2E8-4E0B-95BE-5A39DD9B2D1A@heapingbits.net>
References: <17514E09-F39D-425C-970C-BC14C70F15B9@heapingbits.net> <CABcZeBPOuZt9uvPzwzFmONtr9f9Baa+pZV7edXFuL+FTwqCD7g@mail.gmail.com> <E5DC75E7-DD6C-4B70-80A2-37294B94568A@heapingbits.net> <CABcZeBMhkgG=x11oW718ACw1+k794wYhhuGMP19QjE2o1qxo=w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.3)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/DX2nJ1e0hNN19b1SU2v7AUauPh0>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] Proposed IAB program on Wholistic Human-Oriented Discussions on Identity Systems (WHODIS)
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:09:11 -0000


> On Jul 17, 2023, at 12:07 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 9:02 AM Christopher Wood <caw@heapingbits.net> wrote:
> 
> > Second, I think that you should probably try to focus on some subset
> > of the landscape, which, as you say, is vast. As a super-rough categorization,
> > you might think of identity being broken down into:
> > 
> > - Primary authentication via public keys, passwords, passkeys, etc.
> > - Secondary (often called federated) identity systems like FedCM,
> >   Google Auth, Facebook Connect (or whatever it's called now), etc.
> > 
> > These seem superficially similar, and of course RPs will often accept
> > both (e.g., log in with your password or Google Auth), but technically
> > they are quite different. I would focus on the second category and
> > eschew the first.
> 
> This is an interesting take. Is your suggestion to focus on the second due to the well-defined nature of the first group?
> 
> Yes, and that there is already very active standards work in that area.

Got it — that makes sense to me.

Best,
Chris