Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 06 July 2022 20:44 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673C8C14F74E; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.903
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qtnnqkowJjrX; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBBCAC14F72F; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1o9Bs8-000CWg-3a; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 16:43:44 -0400
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 16:43:38 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
cc: "core@ietf.org WG" <core@ietf.org>, Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, iesg@ietf.org, iana@iana.org, Scott Bradner <sob@sobco.com>
Message-ID: <1C71CE95BBEBEADC383D03EC@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <AM7PR07MB62481F11F90B69DE7A2DC3D1A0809@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <165511479760.19573.12671700576299137749@ietfa.amsl.com> <63D13796-758D-469B-AFA8-3050C9F87819@tzi.org> <AS1PR07MB86169230F0D43E82CB2BCA1698AC9@AS1PR07MB8616.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <CAObGJnO7kdhO6tzLx2GZH3FVj2iedCU=fWH-w608OAStMMGeLA@mail.gmail.c om> <10B6E8EC0FCAFB668F04845E@PSB> <CAObGJnOqMAmu32stN11NoTAfvNhXvmGSjscpk8cS5AO6iY4k0Q@mail.gmail.com> <B9C8C465-FE6A-49A6-BA36-EB5756F75463@tzi.org> <AS1PR07MB8616E70E8C511B024183638698BA9@AS1PR07MB8616.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <DB9PR08MB6524B5E1658A5C75692FD98E9CBD9@DB9PR08MB6524.eurprd08.pr od.outlook.com> <AS1PR07MB8616FC72CCA68AAC9F0A979898BE9@AS1PR07MB8616.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <5D48F562-8F48-40EF-8C5A-E0A3EF2AFF74@tzi.org> <ae1d0248-c87d-862f-921e-a2284af288ba@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <AM7PR07MB62481F11F90B69DE7A2DC3D1A0809@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/Mqt96VIqbBBr1EYuQTdDMc9gp_o>
Subject: Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/art>, <mailto:art-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/art/>
List-Post: <mailto:art@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:art-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art>, <mailto:art-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 20:44:32 -0000
Adding the IESG to the distribution because this is, in several respects, their problem (and not an ART-specific one, much less CORE or YANG specific) and IANA because this affects them and their responsibility to try to maintain working and coherent registries, and Scott Bradner for reasons that will be obvious. --On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 11:16 +0000 tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote: > <tp> > In answer to Martin's question with a trimmed list >... >> If somebody has a pointer to an official IETF definition of >> "obsoletes" that differs from this general understanding, I'd >> appreciate it. >... > No I do not but see it come up regularly in WG and with ADs. > > There might be an IESG statement but is not. > > There might be something in the RFC Editor Style Guide but is > not. > > What there is is a definition in SMIv2 (RFC2578 s.6.1) which > has been inherited by YANG (RFC7950 s.7.21.2) so that is where > I point people. That definition is not only specific to one protocol (and the one that inherited it) but cannot be applied generally because it distinguishes between "obsolete" (which is part of the vocabulary for classifying RFCs) and "deprecated", which is not. Its use of "deprecated" comes close to what RFC 2026 calls "Not Recommended" (or possibly "Limited Use") but those are not categories in the RFC system either (and, of course, the only ways 2026 uses "obsolete" is a part of the definition of "Historic" and with regard to what it does to 1602). This is quite a nice tangle. It has arguably gotten worse over the years. > More generally, I think that the problem arises when authors > include material with different life cycles in the one > document. I see that now with YANG where the one document > contains: - the initial version of an IANA-maintained module, > never to be updated, never to be obsoleted - a protocol module > which will evolve over time with the protocol and with > experience. Yes, although it is not clear to me that is the best example. It certainly is not the only one. > When it is time to update the protocol module, the > IANA-maintained module must not be reissued so the original > document must be torn apart and now part of the original > document is obsolete, part is not; there is no good way to > handle this. What the benefits are to the author of putting > disparate material in one I-D I know now, but I see the cost > to the IETF. This is not peculiar to YANG but could apply to > other situations involving IANA. Yes. See above and below. > I realise that the discussion about this I-D being divided or > not is resolved but did think during it that keeping the > document as one might be storing up such problems in the > future. Not just in the future: we have had these problems in the past and, unless this is sorted out, will continue to do so. To make things worse, the relationship between "Historic" and "Obsoleted" was, IMO, clear at one point but has also become unclear. The problems of what Historic or Obsoleted do to a document that still contains active references (to or from IANA registries and sometimes other things) that are still useful (and have not been replaced) have been identified on and off for years. There are also problems when the original spec is still in active use on the Internet but have been declared Obsolete, Historic, Deprecated, or general bad news. Of course, the latter two categories don't exist either, but the documents Tom cites are not the only place one or the other have appeared in RFCs without clear "Not Recommended" A/S language. There have been multiple proposals to fix all or part of the problem and reports of multiple conversations within the IESG. At least up to the present, the IESG has not been receptive to proposals to actually clean things up (including rejection of the NEWTRK work which, for standards track and BCP documents, would have provided a way to do so). What can be done? Absent IESG action (presumably with a proposal that gets community consensus and with careful attention to what it updates or obsoletes), under current rules, we can either live with the situation and the ambiguity it creates or we (the community) can insist, via appeals if needed, that no document obsolete another unless it replaces or removes the need for every bit of the predecessor and updates any document that refers to the predecessor. That would probably kill off the relatively recent idea that one can change the only some of the provisions of a old spec but obsolete that spec without repeating the provisions that are not changed and the somewhat older one of updating by handwaving (i.e., indicating RFCs that are updated by description of a category rather than enumerating them. IANA could also start objecting to adoption of documents that leave registries in an uncertain state. Or we (the community including the IESG) could decide this has gone on long enough and start precisely defining terms and/or creating and defining new mechanisms. Sadly, almost 16 years after the NEWTRK WG was shut down, there has been zero progress on those fronts unless one counts RFC 6410 as a great success [1]. Comments posted to the NEWTRK list on 2010-07-15 in response to the draft that evolved into 6410 might provide additional perspective on the issue [2]. I have not lost hope that the IETF will address this problem before I drop out, but it is hard to stay optimistic. best, john [1] 6410, published in October 2011, specifying two maturity levels instead of one, was expected to significantly increase the number of documents moving to Internet Standard. If one looks at the two-year periods before and after it, there were, by my rough count, 8 documents published at Internet Standard between January 2009 and December 2010 and 2 published at that level between January 2012 and December 2013. One could measure things differently, but that change does not look like a roaring success. [2] The NEWTRK archive at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/newtrk/ appears to be too old to show an Archived-At header field, but the two postings on that date are fairly obvious (and the third and second most recent ones in the archive).
- [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-… Harald Alvestrand via Datatracker
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- [art] Thank you! -- Re: [core] Artart last call r… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Thank you! -- Re: [core] Artart last ca… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- [art] Language tags and YANG Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] Artart last call review of draft… Thomas Fossati
- [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-proble… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-pr… Marco Tiloca
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-… Ari Keränen
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Language tags and YANG tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [art] [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-… Hubert Przybysz
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart las… tom petch
- Re: [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-pr… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… tom petch
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… Carsten Bormann