Re: [Cacao] [EXT] Re: [EXT] RE: Charter

Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com> Tue, 18 June 2019 14:05 UTC

Return-Path: <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
X-Original-To: cacao@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cacao@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D12E120075 for <cacao@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.308
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=symantec.com header.b=V5TeYGHn; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=symantec.com header.b=Gv5fNtLq
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6gmjVfA_lQfa for <cacao@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from asbsmtoutape02.symantec.com (asbsmtoutape02.symantec.com [155.64.138.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F698120033 for <cacao@ietf.org>; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:05:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=Symantec.com; s=2; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@Symantec.com; t=1560866721; x=2424780321; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=8zCgWfBxQWRiGJ9HoIhH8OTvXSXfVyM8CaabDWo5Aek=; b=V5TeYGHnP+2pc6UYVI8ScshxqpEXWnUG5sFavv4GaWSTlxSt5uPRtBJB38fQcjkN JzZZ1HrWRXu2Z2xhLSTReVEnUiisEnVpUZookBnEKbRAU0Sw/E7Upg9vTryMvXkb WokxILHj9lf4RUih+HQmej3Aq0z6b6EV0Y6mnUpXSFk=;
Received: from asbsmtmtaapi02.symc.symantec.com (asb1-f5-symc-ext-prd-snat9.net.symantec.com [10.90.75.9]) by asbsmtoutape02.symantec.com (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id F3.35.49042.1AFE80D5; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:05:21 +0000 (GMT)
X-AuditID: 0a5af81a-584ff9e00000bf92-cc-5d08efa18709
Received: from TUSXCHMBXWPI02.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM (asb1-f5-symc-ext-prd-snat10.net.symantec.com [10.90.75.10]) by asbsmtmtaapi02.symc.symantec.com (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id DC.A6.29625.1AFE80D5; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:05:21 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from TUSXCHMBXWPI02.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM (10.44.91.34) by TUSXCHMBXWPI02.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM (10.44.91.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:05:20 -0700
Received: from NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (10.44.128.7) by TUSXCHMBXWPI02.SYMC.SYMANTEC.COM (10.44.91.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:05:20 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=symantec.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=fjSgcdTk6f35s2zxhuIdOixTE7fwCvZXx9NCQmmtKzw=; b=Gv5fNtLqRVIzDk2p9RYgETQOUN+ufgTBJhEfoUB1WbfYNG5jburxm4eVzexCUlOuU2P2aawpzFcL5+bwRJRpPHm1KJoDOS8GdE3/XDyzREEaexcwWWvqdQFMLZqQ81bnBFW/LY9vzhU0G9Z3t+iapqEw9UW8C5ni8s5L2IIl/So=
Received: from BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (20.178.236.11) by BYAPR16MB2885.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (20.178.234.205) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1987.10; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:05:19 +0000
Received: from BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::9435:20f2:10bd:7c2e]) by BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::9435:20f2:10bd:7c2e%6]) with mapi id 15.20.1987.012; Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:05:19 +0000
From: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "cacao@ietf.org" <cacao@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXT] Re: [Cacao] [EXT] RE: Charter
Thread-Index: AQHVJduT1R6oO0GOXEOUhfzpXQ/SmKahcJ+7
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:05:18 +0000
Message-ID: <BYAPR16MB30139D44233E0256099264DCEDEA0@BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR16MB30133C3DAF3CF2060CE4B565EDEA0@BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAA890F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <BYAPR16MB30137AC9C00633E80C7C8D65EDEA0@BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>, <779CCF55-FABB-4BA1-9D84-1D9761A32944@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <779CCF55-FABB-4BA1-9D84-1D9761A32944@tzi.org>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Bret_Jordan@symantec.com;
x-originating-ip: [195.238.226.2]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bbfee579-2627-4ee4-381c-08d6f3f5ff14
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR16MB2885;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR16MB2885:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BYAPR16MB28857EF681F439701B7E397AEDEA0@BYAPR16MB2885.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273;
x-forefront-prvs: 007271867D
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(376002)(346002)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(136003)(199004)(189003)(72206003)(86362001)(55016002)(81166006)(9686003)(33656002)(11346002)(81156014)(7696005)(6606003)(446003)(6916009)(80792005)(26005)(6506007)(102836004)(53546011)(19627405001)(186003)(66556008)(8936002)(66066001)(91956017)(476003)(8676002)(76176011)(14454004)(99286004)(2906002)(54906003)(73956011)(66446008)(66476007)(316002)(64756008)(66946007)(68736007)(478600001)(486006)(25786009)(256004)(14444005)(7736002)(3846002)(6116002)(76116006)(52536014)(4326008)(5660300002)(71190400001)(6436002)(53936002)(6246003)(71200400001)(74316002)(10290500003)(229853002)(54896002)(9010500006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR16MB2885; H:BYAPR16MB3013.namprd16.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: symantec.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: XIfao723mIj+iMbSPyQTqXRAq8kis6NNJwVeNcWcYbtmhuF185SIQbUSAdd/Z1EBipB5n42g4oi52n+hLTNL1Uj3AoM/c4eOeffCGyAMune2E669OFV8Ybh4+RF8Dueb47NTwXvbY4Hfg/+wwZuWt+ixM8is+U5rs9XMHA9EfZ7ZOc8yrf85WwhOkZgmzVAH2ICOTDnXjMvX0bZhwtd37OCGR5a09csFSV43JVvp9U8xQF+Atu5iWEaNQayrd3fEcSsk6vK2Jkcn0gtuZ0erbhuyLt/Dh8ZhSXXXKedYe1zVPtDce6A9Ya36vpwMbPMB4RD31dJtWADAi5FamiGBwJXl6yS+SVj/3QHM+OLNtETStD6ukd/cmO8bo6nplFkJyJ0sVnnY286kkGPNSG8Vc5c6W9xCswoMmE0n4RGxIAs=
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR16MB30139D44233E0256099264DCEDEA0BYAPR16MB3013namp_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bbfee579-2627-4ee4-381c-08d6f3f5ff14
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jun 2019 14:05:19.0936 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3b217a9b-6c58-428b-b022-5ad741ce2016
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Bret_Jordan@symantec.com
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR16MB2885
X-OriginatorOrg: symantec.com
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA01Sa1CMYRT2fpfdrx1rXlt0bChLmYmuajQ0xi+izDRmMBMNX/VR02Vrtys/ lIpEZETTrqSmaUg/dGNTblsNG5WaVpSULLaJEjUyprLffmX6885znuc557znzGFIWQMtZ6Li EjlVHBujEEkoSUigjVvpOBPqeWZko19LwQDtZ+jXiPyav38W7yQDysv/EAFZXwyigOtlUcFk iMQ/gouJSuZUHjuOSSJrmwxUfPaG1KFHjumod20usmEA+8BHvZnORRJGhicQmOayyAWhKbNR LAjTCN4ae0VC0IKg594Ixbtk2IxgTO/CCxTOJyH3hoESXAUEVGVUEEIwbClc24/4FBHeDJ2d 561N7LACXndVWeoyDImPQ86kPU/bYi/oyCmiBYs3DJ799R/r2swEjynsDOYnL2k+VYqPQMtf f6HVfQLS6y8jnrfB2yFj4ABvR3gl/G6rsqaS2B76TCWEMCaG8qbO+ZFXwMinWVrwH4bZmku0 wK+DvMw5kYDXQHfJBSTgfWA291h3B/gdghdFRjHfF7ArVJYGC55oaDQ+pQTsAsafrfN4NVzU j9L5yEuz6Esa6yKUYDbu4WkpXg6GIhMlWDxhvKOEFPAmqCgdncceUD3Zjhbzt5C4Ejmx6jB1 bKIyKZGN5zy93dVpseH8w1rOKdw9XBlbg6wHNS3XIdP7ID3CDFIslZ42MaEymk22OPUIGFJh J722xUJJI9i0k5xKeVSVFMOp9ciBoRT20kOYCJXhE2wiF81x8ZxqQSUYG3k6OuVYQewlw5nn BzNLZ55pnZt9NQm7bHtktnWE3R35m/JszjWzK77m1aqw4jFnSqvVTbR+8MmaKbzpY3aa3l8c mLKsfZt3w7Bn2eNzvYXfpiJbliRzt/sHh7Tt3dSV0L56U494KiHFo26379f1vqnBd3UOP/LC rgZVuz0kHoxuVc8oKHUk6+VKqtTsPyRfFKFMAwAA
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SbUhTURjHOfdlu44Gx2ntycqXUUqWr0QISRntg6WFX4TUSd3WLYdOZVtS 9EUxQ1c5JQkd1TJskoiYUgqbWnNJM9ReXKZmmZpNrLTU3gzL65Xwy+H3/M//f57nHA5Dym7Q fowm28DpstkshUhCSVITJGHVM0x6ZMlcUIyzYoSOcQ2bRTGdnz+I48j4mppfRPyFSZco/tpt TRKZKok9yWVp8jhdxN7jkoxmu4vKLdp6drQtIB8N+BuRFwN4F9gLbWIjkjAy/BPBa/eASCic CPobpyjeJcMeBF8cwfwGhctIMF53UYKrgoD6AishFGMIJpqHER8R4Z3Q11dC8uyLFfDsef3y uQxD4lNQPC/nZR8cBb3FVbRgiYZ3F+f+c2u3h+CZwtvA0/GU5qNSrALnYqzQ6gEB+fdNiNe9 8B4oGEnm7QhvgB/d9StREsthaMJCCNfEUGPvIwVeD1PjS7TgT4OlplJa0IPgSuFfkcBb4IXl EhL4MHg8/TTfF/AggidVbjHfF3Ao1FUnCZ5MsLkfUgIHg/vb41XeDJcd06vZThG0TzpWZpZh DloqQ8pQmHnNqOaVB8oBj/sgL0uxN7iqJijBEgkzvRZS4B1grZ5e5Qi4N9+D1uq3kLgOBbL6 E3qtQWtg2VxNZHS4/pxWzS/s8m9Sh6tztE1o5T8tyltR759EB8IMUqyTxg8y6TKazVt2OtAm hlLIpc2q+TQZPs0auEyOy+V0x3Rnsji9AxGMl18+0g650Hvb1bbxlje7fx8o3+j7ata1704X URmqbzjqtKoZUyJV+7ZlKW/URzkfaKsjDaaxLqX39rAUoteq6lnSFKkeGUsXPkVG5xyqlJvl yfvb/RtvdrAjStXduFn713IL0ff9o7It4KWrNiopnD7flJCXMnEkZIZukCxYTCMKSp/BRoWS Oj37D+js8bswAwAA
X-CFilter-Loop: ASB04
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cacao/bjZGIE_K-R-242OYTgHSR45OOFI>
Subject: Re: [Cacao] [EXT] Re: [EXT] RE: Charter
X-BeenThere: cacao@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Collaborative Automated Course of Action Operations <cacao.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/cacao>, <mailto:cacao-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cacao/>
List-Post: <mailto:cacao@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cacao-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cacao>, <mailto:cacao-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:05:26 -0000

Carsten,


I appreciate your comments. However, from our experience, with a large group of people that are in both camps, editing specs in Google docs proves to be the easiest solution for all. So it is not about preferring one group over another.  It is about what proves to be the easiest and fastest to enable as many people as possible to get work done quickly and efficiently.


Bret


________________________________
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 7:41:20 AM
To: Bret Jordan
Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; cacao@ietf.org
Subject: [EXT] Re: [Cacao] [EXT] RE: Charter

On Jun 18, 2019, at 14:24, Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan=40symantec.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Using Github will prevent people from helping, or will limit people to only those that understand how to use Github and have access to Github.  Resolving comments and suggestions via Github is significantly harder than Google Docs.

My comment here is kind of off-topic, but…
The statement you are making here is that one group of contributors (those that can stand collaborating on a document with the limited means Google Docs) is more important than another group of contributors (those that are used to software development workflows).  While that may very well be, I think it is important to make decisions like this explicitly.
(I personally believe that this effort could benefit from strong participation by people who write code.)

Grüße, Carsten