RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI
"Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Tue, 25 July 2006 19:19 UTC
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Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:03:51 -0500
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Thread-Topic: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI
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From: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>
To: "Sadler, Jonathan B." <Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Jonathan, These statements are not only not correct, they don't make sense considering you were involved in the work, do a refresh and go back in the years, and you will see ITU-IETF liaisons (prior to publication): https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file151.doc and: https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file132.txt and there are many more. My co-chair, our previous ccamp co-chair, and Kam (ITU's Q14 Rap) have worked together over these past couple of years to ensure the ASON work progressed - jointly. Considering the number of cross-participants, a lack of IETF-OIF liaison can not be used as the basis of the current confusion and duplication in work. And anyone can participate and access IETF documents - it's an open process. If this OIF document is on an OSPF implementation "has been implemented by many vendors" and the vendors intend it to be production use (vs. experimental), then the OIF (or a vendor) needs to follow the IETF process. That's a different subject. The current liaison was scoped as requirements which is why we are trying to understand it. Lyndon has already responded saying he believes there is no mis-alignment. Thanks Lyndon. We will go with that. Thanks, Deborah ________________________________ From: Sadler, Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:29 PM To: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Ong, Lyndon; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Deborah, It seems that your response centers on three topics: 1. The alignment of the IETF architecture/eval documents with the requirements/architecture of other groups, 2. The OIF Draft IA making statements regarding the identifiers used by GMPLS routing when carried by OSPF, and 3. Whether the participants in the design teams did so in any official capacity on behalf of other groups Regarding Topic 1: It's too bad that your exhibit makes my point well - that the text was NOT liaised to the ITU for review/agreement prior to sending it for publication. If you look at the liaison you provided: - you will see it says "for information", not for action meaning there is no intent to find out if it is aligned, and - you will note the email you provided states it was notifying ITU of publication. Witness the specific text: "The CCAMP working group is pleased to inform you of the _publication_ of RFC 4258" Again, I state that the final IETF requirements and IETF evaluation documents were not liaised to the ITU for review/agreement, so it is impossible to say if they are aligned with the OIF requirements. To remove any potential receiver confusion what this statement means, let me put in another way: WHEREAS, the ITU has developed a set of requirements and architecture for ASON routing commonly known as G.8080, G.7715 and G.7715.1, and WHEREAS, the members of the OIF are on record that the requirements and architecture specified in G.8080, G.7715 and G.7715.1 are the requirements and architecture to be followed by the OIF, and WHEREAS, the IETF has been working on documents which purport to be accurate restatements of the requirements and architecture specified by ITU for ASON routing, and WHEREAS, the final documents of the IETF have not been liaised to the ITU for the purposes of review or agreement prior to publication, allowing determination that they are accurate restatements, THEREFORE, it cannot be said that the documents of the IETF are aligned with the requirements or architecture specified by the ITU, and THEREFORE, it cannot be said that the documents of the IETF are aligned with the requirements or architecture of the OIF. Please be aware the reason that the OIF did NOT restate the ITU Requirements and Architecture documents (unlike CCAMP), and instead went on record saying that the ITU documents were the requirements and architecture documents to be followed was to REMOVE the possibility of OIF-speak, and support convergence on well-defined ITU-speak. This goes a long way to removing confusion. Regarding Topic 2: The IETF requirements and evaluation documents don't make any specific statements about the fitness of IETF protocols for ASON routing. The OIF document text (which predates even the IETF requirements document) is making specific statements about OSPF - statements that are based on Section 10 of G.8080. CCAMP has not finished (started?) a document that makes any specific statements about OSPF. Again I ask, wouldn't it be better to look at this document which has been implemented by many vendors, and successfully interoperability tested many times over many years to see what can be leveraged instead of starting from scratch? Regarding Topic 3: While Lyndon and I are participants in the ITU and OIF, we are not authorized to make statements on behalf of either organization other than the statements authorized by those organizations. Our participation in the design teams were not as official representatives of the ITU or OIF. The only way for the documents to be considered aligned would be to liaise them prior to publication to the ITU or OIF for review/agreement and wait for the response. Again, since this was not done, it is unclear if the documents are in alignment. It should also be noted that the OIF has been interested in setting up a formal OIF-IETF liaison relationship to remove this misconception, while CCAMP has prevented it. It seems that the confusion in the IETF would be lower if the liaison relationship was formed. Certainly, this level of confusion does not exist in the ITU where an OIF-ITU liaison relationship has existed for many years. I look forward to reviewing the new liaison text. Jonathan Sadler ________________________________ From: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:58 AM To: Sadler, Jonathan B.; Ong, Lyndon; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Jonathan, I think you meant OIF below, as ITU and IETF work on ASON has been tightly coordinated e.g. a quick back search: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=150 This mis-match is always the concern when work is duplicated in other groups.For OIF to be progressing a document identifying issues with GMPLS for supporting ASON when already CCAMP has finished their document is not only a misuse of people's time (both in OIF and IETF), it also causes confusion in the industry (we now have ITU-speak, CCAMP-speak, and OIF-speak). As the hope of the CCAMP's ASON Design Teams was to have a representation of ITU, OIF, and CCAMP (especially considering Lyndon is OIF's Liaison to CCAMP (and editor of the OIF document) and you as chair), if both of you have difficulty judging the alignment of this document vs. ASON requirements and CCAMP's work, then the document is not helping either OIF's intention to develop standards in alignment with ITU and IETF or CCAMP's ability to develop an ASON solution. We should re-spin the Liaison to inform OIF that this work has been completed in CCAMP and to request that OIF's evaluation sections be removed and replaced with references to the Evaluation document (vs. trying to do multiple-speak which has us all confused) and expand on the comments (Dimitri's mail which Lyndon has agreed is very useful). I'll work on it today, and send later. "Significant" Thanks on the confusion;-) Deborah ________________________________ From: Sadler, Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com] Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 5:38 PM To: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Ong, Lyndon; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Deborah, While I do not speak for the OIF, I can say that the members of the OIF are on record (by motion) to follow the Requirements and Architecture specified in G.8080, G.7715 and G.7715.1. Since the final IETF requirements and IETF evaluations documents were never liaised to the ITU for comment/agreement before they were sent for publication, I cannot say that they are aligned with the requirements of the OIF. Regards, Jonathan Sadler ________________________________ From: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 4:31 PM To: Sadler, Jonathan B.; Ong, Lyndon; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Jonathan, I just sent mail to Lyndon to ask if he felt CCAMP's work was aligned. From your mail below, you do believe that CCAMP's ASON requirements document and evaluation document meet the needs of OIF? As the OIF Liaison stated it specified requirements, we do want to ensure that the work is aligned. Thanks, Deborah ________________________________ From: Sadler, Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com] Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 4:32 PM To: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Ong, Lyndon; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Deborah, Lyndon, et al, Some additional comments: - The hierarchical model discussed in the draft IA liaised may be supported without any modifications to OSPF. As discussed in earlier emails, it can be implemented solely through the import/export of information described in Appendix I of G.7715. - The draft IA also recognizes namespace issues exist between Router ID and the IP Address that messages are sent to (ITU calls this the RC PC SCN address). This issue is also discussed in draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing. Given that: - CCAMP has a milestone to publish an ASON routing solution by Nov 2006, - CCAMP didn't have at the time this was liaised (doesn't have today?) a working group document, and - the draft IA has been successfully implemented by more than a dozen vendors and interop-tested many times, I would expect that we should be looking at this as experience/text that could be leveraged... "Running code..." and all that... Regards, Jonathan Sadler ________________________________ From: Ong, Lyndon [mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com] Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 2:33 PM To: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Sadler, Jonathan B.; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Deborah, Here's what I would say is in and not in the OIF document: -- G.7715, G.7715.1 and the IETF eval and solutions draft all identify a need to support hierarchical routing areas for ASON, I am perplexed as to why this seems to be viewed as a new feature. -- the document does not specify the domain of usage and leaves this to the carrier. This is no different from G.7715.1 and IETF drafts that do not explicitly state whether they are used for intra- or inter-domain interfaces. -- GMPLS OSPF does not support a 1:N or N:1 relationship between routing controller and transport node, hence extensions are felt to be required - and are proposed in the eval solutions draft. The conclusions are no different. -- the document does not in fact define any standard extensions to the protocols, and points to future work in IETF and ITU to provide these. Therefore I cannot understand where you say "new extensions to OSPF are specified" and "none...align with the CCAMP's GMPLS-ASON work". I think we're experiencing a significant miscommunication... Cheers, Lyndon ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 12:15 PM To: Sadler, Jonathan B.; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Jonathan, (and Lyndon), Thanks to both of you for responding. "Significant" was referencing: - supports a (new) hierarchical OSPF model - supports inter-domain (inter-carrier) OSPF (not supported by today's OSPF) - identifies namespace issues with GMPLS OSPF which do not exist, and proposes extensions to "fix" - new extensions to OSPF are specified - none of the proposed extensions align with CCAMP's GMPLS-ASON work Did you have another adjective to suggest? We were thinking "significant" was rather soft considering the above. Though if it's just ITU-speak differences, why does the OIF liaison state it reflects several years of work including testing? Any insight (alignment mapping to CCAMP's work) which you or Lyndon can provide would be helpful. The divergence is baffling to us. Deborah ________________________________ From: Sadler, Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 11:34 AM To: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi Deborah and Adrian, I haven't seen much discussion of the OIF E-NNI Routing document on the CCAMP list. Can you tell me what parts of the document are "significant modifications to the operation of OSPF"? Thanks, Jonathan Sadler ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 9:38 AM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel Subject: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Hi, We had a communication from OIF on their OSPF ENNI specification. You can see the original files on http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm <http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm> . Having assembled comments from several people and our discussions in Montreal, we have put together the following response. Please comment on the list in the next week. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah = = = = = = = = = = Dear Jim, We thank you for sending us the OIF ENNI document in response to our request. While we appreciate the document being provided for information, it is concerning that this document has not been previously shared with CCAMP or the OSPF WG considering the document contains significant modifications to the operation of OSPF and reflects OIF work over the last several years. CCAMP has been working on GMPLS ASON for several years and our Design Teams include OIF participants. Even though a reply was not requested, we are replying, as we strongly recommend that the document not be published for public information in its current form. Of most concern to CCAMP is that it is not aligned with RFC 4258 (Requirements for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Routing for the Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON)) or the to-be-published: ftp://ftp.isi.edu/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ev al-03.txt. Considering notable OIF participants are authors of both these IETF documents (and the same participants are contributors and the Editor for the OIF document), the non-alignment is perplexing. Considering the IETF document is ready for publication, we suggest in the interests of time, that you align your document with the IETF document. If any questions on the interpretation of the IETF's work, we recommend that you either utilize the CCAMP mail exploder or send a communication. Specific comments include: 1. What is the intent of this document? Will it be published as an Implementation Agreement (IA)? The title indicates it will be an Implementation Agreement on GMPLS OSPF extensions, but the main body of the document is a list of issues with GMPLS OSPF. Further, your communication to us stated the document was requirements on and use of OSPF-TE at the ENNI. These three views seem to be inconsistent. 2. The list of changes from the previous version (listed under the Table of Contents) includes "removed "intra-carrier" limitation" and the inclusion of Figure 1 showing the OSPF ENNI for use between vendor domains and between carrier domains. GMPLS OSPF-TE already supports inter-vendor operations. The IETF's GMPLS ASON routing focus has been on the use of a link-state based protocol to support a hierarchical routing architecture (G.7715.1) within a carrier's domain. Requirements for using a link state protocol as an inter-domain protocol between carriers are significantly different. We strongly disagree if you intend to publish this document as an inter-carrier OSPF ENNI Implementation Agreement claiming alignment with IETF RFCs without review (or agreement) by any of the IETF Working Groups. 3. Section 4.1/Table 1 and the statement under the table identifying issues with GMPLS identifier namespaces are not correct. GMPLS identifier namespaces do meet ASON requirements for namespace separation of the transport plane and control plane (Section 5.2 and 5.3/Evaluation). Perhaps you are confusing OSPF and GMPLS OSPF? As you also identified in your liaison that the key area needing review was the support of independence of functional component to physical location, this appears to be a key area of misunderstanding on GMPLS. We recommend reviewing RFC3945 (GMPLS Architecture) to understand that the key architecture difference between GMPLS and MPLS is the decoupling of the transport plane and control plane. Additionally, RFC4394, RFC4397, and RFC4258, provide a mapping to ITU terminology which may be helpful reading. We request an additional round of communication of this document to the IETF before approval to allow us to work with you to produce convergence between OIF and IETF work which, we believe, will be in the best interests of the industry. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard, CCAMP co-chairs ============================================================ The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reproduction, dissemination or distribution of this communication is strictly prohibited. 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Tellabs ============================================================ ============================================================ The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reproduction, dissemination or distribution of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Tellabs ============================================================ ============================================================ The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reproduction, dissemination or distribution of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Tellabs ============================================================
- Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Sadler, Jonathan B.
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Sadler, Jonathan B.
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Sadler, Jonathan B.
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Sadler, Jonathan B.
- Re: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- Re: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Tomohiro Otani
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Sadler, Jonathan B.
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Sadler, Jonathan B.
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Drake, John E
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- Re: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Richard Rabbat
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Drake, John E
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Drake, John E
- shared mesh restoration - e2e recovery signaling … Payam Torab
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- Re: shared mesh restoration - e2e recovery signal… Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Drake, John E
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: shared mesh restoration - e2e recovery signal… Payam Torab
- RE: shared mesh restoration - e2e recovery signal… Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: shared mesh restoration - e2e recovery signal… Payam Torab
- RE: shared mesh restoration - e2e recovery signal… Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Dimitri.Papadimitriou
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN
- Alignment of OIF routing requirements with CCAMP … Adrian Farrel
- Addressing draft [Was: Proposed response to OIF o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Adrian Farrel
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Drake, John E
- An IETF / OIF liaison relationship Was: (Re: Prop… Loa Andersson
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Ong, Lyndon
- RE: Proposed response to OIF on OSPF ENNI Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS