Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com> Thu, 23 June 2022 11:13 UTC
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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 07:13:37 -0400
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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, Core WG mailing list <core@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-core-problem-details.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
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Hi Carsten, OK - you need to get this CORE document published quickly. But I still think that detailed CDDL would be a long-term mistake, for the reason that Martin cited - i.e., copying/transforming grammars among RFCs is fragile. Cheers, - Ira *Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)* *Chair - SAE Trust Anchors and Authentication TF* *Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG* *Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG* *Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WGSecretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working GroupCo-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WGIETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIBBlue Roof Music / High North Inchttp://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic <http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic>http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc <http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc>mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>(permanent) PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434* On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 7:03 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote: > Hi Ira, > > before we send our detailed response for his excellent comments to Martin, > I would like to set an accent here. > > > I agree that a separate draft for CBOR language tags would be > preferable, to > > raise the visibility of internationalization in other RFCs and in other > SDOs. > > Frankly, raising visibility for internationalization requirements is not > our job here. Making sure that these requirements are addressed in our > documents is, and a nice side effect is that more people will learn about > them in the process. > > We saw that we have a protocol that is likely to often have at least one, > but rarely two constrained nodes talk to each other (hence the extended > validation potentials for less-constrained nodes — but not every node has > to validate on the fly!). > We wanted to use existing tag 38 for this, but noted the lack of the > indication of a writing direction. > This was fixed, at considerable peril of delaying the process. > > Tag 38 does not have the intention to take over all forms of > human-readable strings; as we noted, expressing the additional data that > need to go with a Unicode string *is* an active subject of discussion among > the experts (*). (Our spec immediately triggered discussion on how to > solve this in an even more general way, which is a great discussion the > results of which we cannot wait for.) > > > I suggest that CORE or other IETF WGs specifically focused on constrained > > devices are the wrong places to write and publish such a language tag > RFC, > > because CBOR is certainly *not* primarily for constrained devices > anymore. > > It is true that tag 38 can be versatile enough to be used outside the > constrained protocol space (i.e., communication that has to arrange for the > possibility of at least one constrained peer). But that was not the > intention of this draft. The intention was to create a concise problem > details format, and in the process we noticed that we have to fix up > registered tag 38 a bit, because some of the content of the problem details > format is human-readable. > > > I would prefer to see the separate RFC developed in the CBOR WG. > > I’d prefer to get this document published! > > We accelerated the work on this to get it done within the 3GPP rhythm, and > are grateful for a lot of feedback that allowed us to make this a better > document really fast. > Opening up a debate about life, the universe, and internationalization at > this time is not going to help with that. > > Or, in other words: There is indeed a good argument for bottom-up projects > that cover a certain problem statement (but which still should be driven by > requirements of actual protocols!), but this is not one of them. > > > In many IETF WGs (RATS, SACM, TEEP, etc.) and many other SDOs, CBOR > > is being heavily used for the entire spectrum of computing devices > (especially > > routers and switches for telecom networks and servers for enterprise > networks). > > CBOR is simply a better mousetrap, IMO. > > I certainly agree with that. > > And I’m looking forward to doing the extensive work that will be needed to > complete [1]. But not for the concise problem details specification. > > Grüße, Carsten > > (*) And, while not being one of the foremost experts here, I still have a > chip on the table [1], which needs to be revived and could be a home for > more considerations on human-readable text. > [1]: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode/ > >
- [core] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core… Harald Alvestrand via Datatracker
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Ira McDonald
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Ira McDonald
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Ira McDonald
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… tom petch
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… tom petch
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Ira McDonald
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… tom petch
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… tom petch
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Carsten Bormann
- [core] Thank you! -- Re: [art] Artart last call r… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] Thank you! -- Re: [art] Artart last ca… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] Artart last call review of draft… Thomas Fossati
- [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-probl… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-p… Marco Tiloca
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-p… Ari Keränen
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft… tom petch
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on… tom petch
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-p… Hubert Przybysz
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] [art] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- [core] Obsoletes Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart las… tom petch
- Re: [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-p… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [core] [art] Obsoletes Re: [Last-Call] Artart… John C Klensin
- Re: [core] [art] Obsoletes Re: [Last-Call] Artart… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [core] [art] Obsoletes Re: [Last-Call] Artart… tom petch
- Re: [core] [art] Obsoletes Re: [Last-Call] Artart… Carsten Bormann