IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [dmarc-ietf] Response to a claim in draft-crocker-dmarc-author-00 security considerations

Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com> Sun, 26 July 2020 16:12 UTC

Return-Path: <dcrocker@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2E53A0FAF for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gdDqGwDR-nLM for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C8E53A0FAE for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id u24so2461863oiv.7 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=yt66CbaUBgdO/W63SQ12fa1faOJqiKG4UKQIkJuK/XM=; b=WA/m4yy4/lGbzuhG9AaKmDcixiVV2YRt+ONN6WAW3DVLoLfTM3xj7zFaWn7e8ovt+d S0sYoc6LwKyxCMMv/moQDuqGV2aUuKLaigNI4HEbecWjXAStxeSoLffBrasflDlYn6is cvLN3aXWW+49FLhoeDuc3AwIMKVdk3buO2SWu42DdBieqM1ndd+whntD+RkoFSx8AEwj 7/wFt5HPLTFy8K3S1cfPqjK6sJ7eRB9IzN8luHNqFYC/9cs9tz7GhigTGAcAE0oe78Cb lv/QMkQ1ALuw1Zq8GQdmcfMXBJAlx952vhYznpGr7gvtVYM3BgFpd338RbpRl51zWD7u WuyQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=yt66CbaUBgdO/W63SQ12fa1faOJqiKG4UKQIkJuK/XM=; b=GSLLQiaZs99zPwjU2P0oslixrwvvlKNPvcojpf9l/8/Kl7yLNn2IcJXk4ysCIcgh+n R1psP/sIXGmYbAJOd80U/ZlBnWLieo43rU+/4lcEetW22N/LiwrzwBgkW5Hp2UfTHM7R YQmYGXK1TW5fj8D1fWnVD7Iotl3AXv23kJLbZJPXJmfbs/BoRvReooEGdTPnv46eKxS9 MpnkpRj6pJPhCOdbsYiK+zmR6vKiLbDcmkVsgLrjwin3ScK3i7XQd333M9ZRo9BrE5Ux /htaJ0WOevwdf1N2jrBPx6Ky2SP4yzCvhC9czBolTGYDW0DFprQiXplN+50J6gvP0Nm9 4OLg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324vHLVvTZCbcBIplLxinct4CQBQg+ZAbHWid6jSpLHoj3KYX7L W+vd0xG3Jc3OBL/LaSEYbX5XmtbNWvM=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTbFjokYW5f9sIknEvmaoROV9/ECNkm+qopnl9OCjr2hd1C+j+jj3ABktArBWGasUbJkmVqA==
X-Received: by 2002:aca:db82:: with SMTP id s124mr14423742oig.89.1595779961214; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1700:a3a0:4c80:3c93:5031:45cb:cbb7? ([2600:1700:a3a0:4c80:3c93:5031:45cb:cbb7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v137sm1551595oia.23.2020.07.26.09.12.40 for <dmarc@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: dmarc@ietf.org
References: <cd9258e6-3917-2380-dd9b-66d74f3a64d3@gmail.com> <20200717210053.674D61D2C431@ary.qy> <CAL0qLwbkhG-qUyGqxaEjcFn2Lb7wPMhcPFEMA8eqptBJpePPxA@mail.gmail.com> <8efcf71c-f841-46a4-10b7-feb41a741405@gmail.com> <CAL0qLwbK7GQXkiS+H8GtsvHMzWr4o431Shc7Cc9MhqsTiHfzFw@mail.gmail.com> <bc7ed18c-8f1d-b41b-0a4b-3aa180a63563@gmail.com> <CAL0qLwYgs7py1aTQ87pykNT_0dpnrKz=+1DxMMSQMgbwz4XZDg@mail.gmail.com> <381c7792-5bd8-a1be-6b93-b7df015a2333@gmail.com> <d8bab034-7539-fbb4-faa0-daf6aa51e087@wisc.edu> <1442df0b-c885-f8da-67f5-93f51a683937@dcrocker.net> <5F1D9E69.5060605@isdg.net>
From: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf093e68-b84a-fe22-91ee-df0b49c9b155@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:12:39 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <5F1D9E69.5060605@isdg.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/K0TU9N52e0nlv6rTqI34L7mW89c>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Response to a claim in draft-crocker-dmarc-author-00 security considerations
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:12:46 -0000

>> My wording was not careful enough.  What I /meant/ was: end-users are
>> not relevant to the /trust-related decision making/ that is the goal
>> of these protection mechanisms.
>
> This may be a philosophical theory, but in reality, in lieu of having 
> deterministic mechanisms, we do have mail systems who do allow the 
> user to make these type of trust decisions.  If a trust-related 
> question is answered wrong by the user, the true victim is the honest 
> sender.

My comment was about observable behavior, not philosophical anything.

The issue isn't about was is available to users, but what they actually 
do.  Behavior.


d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email