Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Wed, 03 April 2019 22:34 UTC
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References: <1700920918.12557.1552229700654@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <76386691-c1aa-c48a-9b0d-67eb36a08a4f@redbarn.org> <CABcZeBOWM0Ps-j3V-CK6VPy0LAqeo7-t7odUZy+dk9d-oCSDsg@mail.gmail.com> <4935758.NkxX2Kjbm0@linux-9daj> <c2c2be47-0855-a9d1-dd53-2404edf4d02b@huitema.net> <807193999.19916.1552445819087@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <9e40ac38-fa10-bbdc-1bfc-302e0ca170df@huitema.net> <ed7c2f6c-8664-5a75-7a8f-d19bce7c0b15@redbarn.org>
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 18:34:21 -0400
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, dnsop@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
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Paul, it might be worth asking whether you believe that isps should be selling eyeballs. If you think they should, then your argument makes sense. It’s the same argument isps give for charging me for service and then charging Netflix for access to me. If you don’t agree with this model, then your argument that whoever built the network has the right to dictate terms is inconsistent. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 15:26 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote: > i had to think about this for quite a long time. i've trimmed the cc > headers. > > Christian Huitema wrote on 2019-03-12 20:39: > > > > On 3/12/2019 7:56 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> ... > > > > The mirror image of that statement is, "when did intermediaries get > > a mandate to filter content?" > > it was rarely a mandate, though various governments have made it one for > various intermediaries. let me answer a different question, when did > intermediaries gain the right or responsibility or both for filtering > content? because that answer is simple: when they started building and > operating it, investing in it, and either profiting or losing from it. > > their networks, their rules. which is only potentially unfair when they > are also monopolies, in which case their end systems and edge networks > have no alternatives. the law may want to recognize when a monopoly > exists and set some minimums and maximums on intermediary operator > rights and responsibilities. but that's not an architecture question. > > > ... The internet architecture assumes full connectivity. At some > > point, people deployed middle-boxes and filtered content because > > they could. > > as seems natural, since the internet architecture is neither viral nor > communist, and anyone who connects a network to that network-of-networks > called "the internet" has always treated all policy as local, since all > responsibility for its emissions and uptime was theirs and only theirs. > > > They did not exactly try to get a mandate, or obtain consensus that > > this was proper. > > no consensus was needed. if someone broke your rules, you stopped them > or disconnected them. that was true for the NSFnet AUP, and it's true of > every network's AUP today, and every corporate or family network's policy. > > > Technologies like DoH force the discussion in the open. Why do you > > think you can filter content? Who made you king? > > i think that's hyperbole. i am at best a prince, and only of the > territory i personally pay to build and connect, and only in the eyes of > people who use my network. anyone who dislikes my rules can search for > some other internet-connected network whose rules they like better. this > is not a dictatorship, but certainly is a coalition of the willing. > > -- > P Vixie > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop >
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [dns-privacy] [Doh] Ne… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Haberman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Bob Harold
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… william manning
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie