Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
Michael Sinatra <michael@brokendns.net> Thu, 14 March 2019 00:07 UTC
Return-Path: <michael@brokendns.net>
X-Original-To: dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C23F124B16; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6DjK2HCbFvNS; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from burnttofu.net (burnttofu.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:1:9d00::9977]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 050311277E2; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elwha.brokendns.net (elwha.brokendns.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a544:0:0:0:0:2]) by burnttofu.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x2E07Rhw067042 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 13 Mar 2019 20:07:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from michael@brokendns.net)
Received: from kimberton.burnttofu.net (127.146.25.136.in-addr.arpa [136.25.146.127]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elwha.brokendns.net (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4/5.63) with ESMTPSA id A645765B1E; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>, "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>
References: <1700920918.12557.1552229700654@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <76386691-c1aa-c48a-9b0d-67eb36a08a4f@redbarn.org> <CABcZeBOWM0Ps-j3V-CK6VPy0LAqeo7-t7odUZy+dk9d-oCSDsg@mail.gmail.com> <4935758.NkxX2Kjbm0@linux-9daj> <c2c2be47-0855-a9d1-dd53-2404edf4d02b@huitema.net> <807193999.19916.1552445819087@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <9e40ac38-fa10-bbdc-1bfc-302e0ca170df@huitema.net> <C72A7196-98CF-40DC-84C7-DA95BADD24B8@cable.comcast.com> <b52e7891-da9f-6972-fc42-bf3aeea0a10f@huitema.net> <CAH1iCioc7xbMRnfzukFNK+RE7ScFru8xEk32F=XbR0Mo+E371w@mail.gmail.com> <e1d74ebd-0a63-700f-f032-faaeeef73993@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Michael Sinatra <michael@brokendns.net>
Message-ID: <ee21337b-65dc-7e81-2f2c-c1a7dec9440f@brokendns.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:24 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <e1d74ebd-0a63-700f-f032-faaeeef73993@cs.tcd.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Greylist: Default is to whitelist mail, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (burnttofu.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:1:9d00:0:0:0:9977]); Wed, 13 Mar 2019 20:07:31 -0400 (EDT)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/aDSfe7Z4B2547wDmUX1Tm9Rc6JM>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list <dnsop.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dnsop/>
List-Post: <mailto:dnsop@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 00:07:50 -0000
On 3/13/19 1:43 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > (dropping dprive list at WG chair request) > > Hiya, > > On 13/03/2019 20:29, Brian Dickson wrote: >> The starting place for the conversation needs to acknowledge this, and >> accommodate it. It is entirely possible that a DoH client that doesn't do a >> minimum level of getting user acknowledgement before violating policies, >> laws, or contracts, might itself be illegal in some jurisdictions >> (jurisdictions that could include some US states, some western countries, >> some larger entities like EU, etc.). > > I almost agreed with you that people need to ack others' > priorities. But the above means I can't agree with your > mail as "might be illegal" is vastly overstated, there > being no relevant difference between DoT and DoH clients > in this respect. I believe that the issue of protocol obfuscation that I mentioned earlier in the draft-reid-doh-operator thread[1] is a relevant difference. There is another technical issue, and that surrounds the question of who is the user and what capabilities does the user have to manage their devices. This has been touched upon with the discussion on opt-in vs. default and with Paul's discussion of data exfiltration. In my home, I have an "Internet-capable" washing machine. Of course my "smart" TV wants to be on the Internet. My Foobot *must* be on the Internet just so I can monitor the air quality in my own home. I don't want the washer on the Internet at all, and for some of the other devices, I want to control what they do on my home network. With embedded and "IoT" devices, there may be limitations on how I--as the user--can control them. There may be hard-coded defaults that are difficult to change (and yet have a way of easily resetting themselves to "factory default"). Leaving aside for now the issue of licensing Ts&Cs, I--as the user--may want to have more *technical* control over the devices than their vendor is willing to give me. One way I can assert that control is via the network. On my home network, I am one of the users and I am also the network admin. I want to assert control over the devices for which *I* am the user, but the people who designed them didn't give them sufficient knobs for me to do this on the device. Another word for software which does things on the network outside of the user's control is "malware," whether it is legitimate or not, and I realize it predates DoH. But DoH legitimizes protocol obfuscation at the network layer and makes it potentially harder for me to control the devices for which I am the user. So if the goal is to give users more control, I'd assert that DoH, at best, works both ways. michael [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/Qole4yY0q_-psyrvWabaRAD8_Vc
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [dns-privacy] [Doh] Ne… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Haberman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Bob Harold
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… william manning
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie