[E-impact] The "human-readable" delusion
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Tue, 16 May 2023 22:31 UTC
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 10:30:49 +1200
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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@gmail.com>
Cc: Manner Jukka <jukka.manner@aalto.fi>, "e-impact@ietf.org" <e-impact@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/e-impact/6_bEA8Dbjpbq3IzwiX8DE5qY6nw>
Subject: [E-impact] The "human-readable" delusion
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On 17-May-23 02:50, Toerless Eckert wrote: > I hope we would have a hard time finding someone in the community to disagree > with these as principles. Alas, once we get to actual ideas what we could > still do beyond all that we have already done, work gets a lot harder. > > For example, is it really worthwhile for energy saving to ask the whole > JSON application layer world/standards we have to evolve to CBOR (binary) ? > > I think the energy saving in high-speed networks would be negligible and > likely outweight by the energy spent by the additional IETF efforts > meeting time, travel, brains involved,... do add CBOR definitions for > all the existing JSON work. And figure out interop. Just an observation, or possibly Carpenter's Corollary to Moore's Law: All "human-readable" formats progressively degrade to "machine-readable" as memory and CPU become cheaper. Prime examples are HTML and XML, of course. 30 years ago HTML documents were written by humans and were more or less understandable to humans. The IETF site in November 1996, for example: <img src="/http://www.ietf.org/images/ietflogo.gif"> <h1>Welcome to the Internet Engineering Task Force!</h1> <p><hr><img src="http://www.ietf.org/redstar.gif"><a href="dvorak.html"> <b>IETF wins Dvorak Telecommunications Award</a></h1> <p> <a href="http://www.cnri.reston.va.us/home/jobs.html"><b>Employment Opportunity</a> with the IETF Secretariat.</b> Today we have stuff like: <div class="navbar-brand header__logo-container"><a class="text-light" href="https://www.ietf.org/"><img class="header__logo" src="IETF%20Introduction_files/ietf-logo.svg" alt="IETF logo"></a></div><div class="collapse navbar-collapse flex-wrap-reverse" id="navbarSupportedContent"><ul class="navbar-nav col-12 col-xl-auto justify-content-xl-center flex-grow"><li class="nav-item btn-group "><a href="https://www.ietf.org/about/" class="nav-link btn btn-dark text-white text-uppercase pe-1">About the IETF</a> So, while what you say is true, it's hard to see a strategic advantage in formats that claim human-readability. The C in CBOR stands for "concise" and that is a valuable property. (The Internet Archive's version of the IETF home page on 1996-11-06 is longer than the reconstructed extract above. The archive mangles the original HTML.) Brian
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- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
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- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
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- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
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- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Romain Jacob
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Romain Jacob
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Cedric Westphal
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Cedric Westphal
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Cedric Westphal
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Manner Jukka
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Jari Arkko
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Manner Jukka
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Chris Adams
- [E-impact] Constrained vs non-constrained environ… Cedric Westphal
- Re: [E-impact] Constrained vs non-constrained env… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] Constrained vs non-constrained env… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [E-impact] Constrained vs non-constrained env… Hesham ElBakoury
- [E-impact] The "human-readable" delusion Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [E-impact] The "human-readable" delusion Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… mp
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… mp
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Marie-Paule Odini
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… mp
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexander Clemm
- [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainabilit… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Romain Jacob
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Michael Welzl
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] Metrics for E-Impact and Sustainab… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Romain Jacob
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Romain Jacob
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Rudolf van der Berg
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexandre Petrescu
- [E-impact] Clarification Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Dom Robinson
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Marie-Paule Odini
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Marie-Paule Odini
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [E-impact] kWh/GB should be banned and the IE… Alexandre Petrescu