Re: [Hls-interest] Inclusive Language

> On Nov 5, 2020, at 2:10 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Roger,
> 
> Thanks for the update.
> 
> One thing to note (and I'm writing only in an individual capacity) -- if one day you want to get a specification onto the Standards Track, this will be an issue.  Even if you only publish on the Independent Stream, the ISE may impose a terminology review on you. 
> 
> That's not to say that the reasons you give for leaving the terminology as-is won't be persuasive, but it will require a discussion, and that could be divisive (thereby consuming time and effort).
> 
> It might be helpful to lay the foundation for an eventual change, even if it isn't made yet. For example, the first use of 'master' in draft -08 is:
> 
>> A Playlist is either a Media Playlist or a Master Playlist
> 
> If you were to introduce an alternative term, it would reduce the impact of an eventual change in the future, e.g.:
> 
>> A Playlist is either a Media Playlist or a Master Playlist (also known as a Main Playlist).
> 
> You could also introduce some text explaining the situation, e.g., something like:
> 
> ~~~
> Future revisions of this specification may use the term 'Main Playlist' in place of 'Master Playlist'. The latter is used here to avoid confusion by those familiar with previous revisions of this specification, but 'Main Playlist' is preferable.
> ~~~
> 
> This would not only prime the audience for a future change, it would also help to break what could be a deadlock with the other standards efforts you refer to -- I suspect that similar reluctance to change elsewhere is justified by "look, HLS isn't changing."

Thanks Mark. That seems like a solid idea.

Roger.

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
>> On 6 Nov 2020, at 6:03 am, Roger Pantos <rpantos=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, I finally have a response on this for you all. Thanks for your patience.
>> 
>> Inclusive language is an important issue that we take seriously. Apple has a specific initiative to improve the language we use and that we encourage our partners to use. This has driven an update to our Style Guide, https://help.apple.com/applestyleguide, which specifically is taking immediate action on the use of some terms, notably blacklist/whitelist and master/slave.
>> 
>> We are committed to improving the inclusivity of our language overall. This message concerns the term “master” that is used in HLS and forms a major part of the way that HLS sessions are referenced and described in other places and documents.
>> 
>> Because it’s part of the “interface” to HLS we want to proceed carefully; we went and looked at several communities, and did a survey of the style guides of various standards bodies, such as ISO (https://www.iso.org/ISO-house-style.html).
>> 
>> Where ‘master’ is part of a term that is cited across an industry (e.g. in video production the idea of a ‘mastering display’), the introduction of a new term needs to respect not only the place where it is defined, but also the places where it is used (e.g. to avoid conflicts or confusion when it is cited). A new term also needs to be introduced in a way that doesn’t cause dislocation, (where the origin/meaning of either the new or old term is no longer clear from the base specification).
>> 
>> At this point, we feel that the disruption caused by an immediate, abrupt, change of a well-established term of art — such as HLS master playlist — is not justified.
>> 
>> We are, however, keeping the question of changing this term open, so we can have a conversation with the community about your need for change, and considerations over both the alternatives and how we might orchestrate a harmonious change without causing dislocation or disruption.
>> 
>> We will also avoid using “master" for new terminology. 
>> 
>> 
>> Roger Pantos
>> Apple Inc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Roger Pantos,
>>> Apple Inc.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, 
>>>> Bill
>>>> 
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