Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes
Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org> Wed, 19 August 2009 16:46 UTC
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:46:18 +0100
From: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>
To: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com
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References: <20090814213754.GD12021@shareable.org> <OF3B15D497.B76ABF1A-ON85257617.0058A11E-85257617.0059BD1A@lotus.com>
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Cc: hybi@ietf.org, uri-request@w3.org, Kristof Zelechovski <giecrilj@stegny.2a.pl>, uri@w3.org, uri-review@ietf.org, 'David Booth' <david@dbooth.org>
Subject: Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes
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noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com wrote: > Jamie Lokier writes: > > > A HTTP URL does not tell you the type of resource, only where to > > find _a_ resource. > > This misses an important point about http URIs and the HTTP protocol. > Although the URL itself does not tell you the type of the resource, the > response to an HTTP GET does indeed tell you the type of the entity body. > So, you can access any such URI on the Web, and you'll either: (1) know > how to interpret the response, I.e. because you recognize the Content-type > and know how to process data of that type, or (2) will reliably discover > that it's of a type you don't know how to process. These characteristics > are what make it possible for you to click on any link, and know that your > browser won't misinterpret the results, even as new Content-types are > deployed (well, let's not get into the sniffing discussion just now). It's > also what allows search engine spiders to interpret the results returned > from GETs on pretty much any http link. Firstly, I agree with the usefulness of Content-Type, which is why I think it would be helpful if the WebSockets protocol defined something equivalent, even just a single string to identify the protocol at the start. Secondly, this thread has talked about protocols on top of protocols (because every WebSockets application will be one). Given a URI, you cannot tell from Content-Type whether that URI supports WebDAV, and you cannot tell whether that URI accepts POSTs to submit new blog entries - just to pick two widely used examples. That requires another level of descriptive metadata, which Content-Type does not provide and is not always available in any other form. But, just like people can enter a "blog posting" URI into their mobile phone, there will be reasons why people enter WebSockets URIs into applications, with no way for the application to verify the protocol except by trying it. > So, this is a desirable characteristic for Web resources, and it's > one of the things that HTTP gives you. Indeed, the whole Web is > designed so that you can start with RFC 3986, the specification for > URIs, and using the references to which it (recursively) delegates, > discover how to correctly interact with and interpret responses from > any resource on the Web. Under the auspices of the W3C TAG, I > prepared a "finding" [1] that goes into more detail on these issues > and their implications. In other words, I disagree with the above. You can't find which particular protocols are overlaid on top of HTTP at every findable URI by the existing mechanisms, and it's unlikely that will ever be possible. > I do > think it is an interesting question (I think I've raised it before), > whether we expect search engines to come on ws/wss links, > and if so, > whether it's valuable for those search engines to be able to discover > information about the resources identified by those links. It's an intersting question, but please don't get too sidetracked from the (imho) more important question of ensuring that specific web applications can connect to WebSockets resource whose URI is provided by a third party, with a reasonable level of safety and security. -- Jamie
- [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Chris Anderson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Mark Nottingham
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Orchard
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Toby Inkster
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Křištof Želechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Erik Wilde
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes John Kemp
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Mark Nottingham
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Erik Wilde
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Toby Inkster
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Toby Inkster
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Křištof Želechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Křištof Želechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Joseph A Holsten
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Joseph A Holsten
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Joseph A Holsten
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Daniel R. Tobias
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Daniel R. Tobias
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Daniel R. Tobias
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Infinity Linden
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Lloyd Wood
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson