Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes
noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com Mon, 24 August 2009 20:17 UTC
Return-Path: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
X-Original-To: hybi@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hybi@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C913A680F for <hybi@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.936
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.936 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.663, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6kmVZEj68XDT for <hybi@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8A23A6EAD for <hybi@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.14.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n7OKAlJL026437 for <hybi@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:10:47 -0400
Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (d01av01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.215]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id n7OKHD74248972 for <hybi@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:17:13 -0400
Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n7OKHDPd000475 for <hybi@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:17:13 -0400
Received: from internet1.lotus.com (internet1.lotus.com [9.32.140.212]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n7OKHC5x000422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:17:13 -0400
Received: from wtfmail05.lotus.com (WTFMAIL05.lotus.com [9.32.140.23]) by internet1.lotus.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id n7OKHCOS2502740; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:17:12 -0500
In-Reply-To: <20090820190157.GB6066@shareable.org>
To: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0.1 January 17, 2006
Message-ID: <OFB5CA31CC.68686941-ON8525761C.006F38B8-8525761C.006F549F@lotus.com>
From: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:19:35 -0400
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on WTFMAIL05/WTF/M/Lotus(Build V851_08132009|August 13, 2009) at 08/24/2009 04:19:35 PM, Serialize complete at 08/24/2009 04:19:35 PM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Cc: hybi@ietf.org, URI <uri@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes
X-BeenThere: hybi@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Server-Initiated HTTP <hybi.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi>, <mailto:hybi-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi>
List-Post: <mailto:hybi@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hybi-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi>, <mailto:hybi-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:17:09 -0000
Jamie Lokier writes: > noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com wrote: > If the server (I.e. the same software that would have > > processed the Web socket upgrade) chooses to, it can respond with metadata > > explaining that this is a Websocket resource, perhaps providing > > information about its purpose and correct use, etc. The means for > > returning that metadata might be along the lines of [1]. That > > discoverability seems to have some value. > Hey, I like that idea. Wish I'd thought of it :-) I can't honestly tell if you're agreeing with me or gently pulling my leg. If the former, then this is a reason to use an http-scheme URI. Thanks. Noah -------------------------------------- Noah Mendelsohn IBM Corporation One Rogers Street Cambridge, MA 02142 1-617-693-4036 -------------------------------------- Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org> 08/20/2009 03:01 PM To: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, hybi@ietf.org, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, URI <uri@w3.org> Subject: Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com wrote: If the server (I.e. the same software that would have > processed the Web socket upgrade) chooses to, it can respond with metadata > explaining that this is a Websocket resource, perhaps providing > information about its purpose and correct use, etc. The means for > returning that metadata might be along the lines of [1]. That > discoverability seems to have some value. Hey, I like that idea. Wish I'd thought of it :-) For round-trip reduction I favour being able to try an upgrade request, with your own optional headers, and have the server reject it if it doesn't see what it wants, perhaps referrring to the information you've described. It also leaves the door for servers to respond with different protocols depending on the request - in the same way as SSH1 and SSH2 are negotiated, for example, without needing extra round-trips. That looks a *lot* like HTTP negotiation, and people are very familiar with that. Servers have good support for it too. > Web socket endpoints are not documents (or "Information Resources" > [2] in the language of AWWW), suggesting that new schemes are indeed > appropriate; I agree. A comet server on http://cometd.org.example/cometd.cgi?protocol=bayeux (example may not be realistic) is not a document in any useful sense either. Where are we going with this? Should that become a legacy hack? Should we have a different scheme for all "protocol-over-HTTP-misused-as-a-transport"? > 2) (happy accident) > I suspect the choice of an HTTP-compatible handshake was made to get > through firewalls, I suspect it was so that it could connect to random servers and get a useful error message if they don't support WebSockets (that has been explained on the hybi list), and to connect to servers which are handling HTTP on the same port. For getting through firewalls - including ISPs who don't firewall but are running intercepting proxies on port 80 - I think it's basically going to fail at that because it doesn't consider proxy issues at all - and because UPGRADE has never been deployed (as far as I know). But to be honest I don't know if it'll fail as much as I think in the real world without measurements from a wide range of internet locations. I'm not the only person who thinks so, though. -- Jamie
- [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Chris Anderson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Mark Nottingham
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Orchard
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Toby Inkster
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Křištof Želechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Erik Wilde
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes John Kemp
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Mark Nottingham
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Erik Wilde
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes noah_mendelsohn
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Toby Inkster
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Toby Inkster
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes David Booth
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Křištof Želechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Křištof Želechovski
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Joseph A Holsten
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Joseph A Holsten
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Joseph A Holsten
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Daniel R. Tobias
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Daniel R. Tobias
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Daniel R. Tobias
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Infinity Linden
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Lloyd Wood
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Kristof Zelechovski
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [Uri-review] ws: and wss: schemes Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] ws: and wss: schemes Ian Hickson