Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Tue, 25 August 2015 15:10 UTC
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:10:03 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Leslie Daigle (TCE)" <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus
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--On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 07:44 +0200 Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote: > On 8/25/15 7:42 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> We have this rule that rough consensus is established on the >> list. And I would say the problem with the meeting text is >> that journalists will spin it to say that the IETF agrees >> with the whole plan. > > But the text that you proposed will be spun the opposite way > that there is not support for the proposal as a whole, which > is worse. And rough consensus can be CONFIRMED on the list. > I don't say we have it at this point, but I'd like the 15 > people not to be ignored. Eliot, Speaking as someone who would have participated in the interim but who was on an airplane and unable to even passively stream it and as a long-term skeptic about interim meetings, I'm fine with confirming consensus from a meeting (interim or otherwise) on a mailing list. However, such a confirmation process should not give the meeting attendees special weight. No one has suggested ignoring them but "the fifteen" (or the the four or five; see below) are not somehow special. They should especially not have an extra, or louder, voice when the number of people who participated in the interim are a small fraction of those who have participated on-list or if the consensus was only rough (I note that, if there were 15 people on the call, "Four or five people supported. Nobody opposed" (from the minutes) would not usually count as a strong statement of support from the interim). I think you have correctly identified the problem: independent of discussions in any particular forum or among anyone and their small circle of supporters, any of the obvious ways the statement can written has the potential to be interpreted ("spun" if you like) in ways the IETF would find regrettable. The solution to that does not seem to me to lie in unresolvable debates about which risk we would rather take but in clearly making the distinction I've suggested before, which is to clearly distinguish between the positions of this WG about its discussions and the IETF's needed and broader issues related to ICANN or Internet administration and management. Whether the rest is stated as additional comments from the WG that do not reflect a formal position or left to the IAB statement is an issue I have trouble getting excited about. You may believe that Richard's comments are non-substantive, but I see him as addressing much the same point. I also note... --On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 08:05 +0200 Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote: >> But I disagree that Andrew has dispensed with it. > > That is a charter issue for a chair, then, to decide. Not the > WG as a whole. Ok, but note that a chair decision, without discussion with the WG, on an issue that is apparently still this controversial just invites an appeal. FWIW, an appeal that was tightly focused and that argued persuasively that significant harm could be done by having a statement go out before it was resolved would almost certainly result in the IETF and WG making no substantive comment on this subject. That is almost certainly worse than any of the possible specific outcomes about what we might say. And, again, --On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 08:06 +0200 Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch> wrote: > The IETF may or may not wish to comment on the entire plan, > but I think that that discussion should take place on some > other list, not on the list that was focusing only on the > protocol parameters part. I think this is important. If the WG is going to make a recommendation to the IETF that will then go through the normal Last Call procedure, then I think it is reasonable to be generous about scope and assume that any issues the IETF wants to address differently will be sorted out there. If the WG wants to make a statement directly, or write one that will get only pro forma IETF review, then I think it is obligated to interpret its charter narrowly and confine itself to issues that both fall within that narrow discussion and that it has discussed in adequate depth. Note that view is, I think, slightly different from Richard's, but the conclusion about focus may be largely the same. best, john
- [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] on considering consensus John C Klensin