Re: Mailing list membership.
Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> Wed, 01 March 2017 04:49 UTC
Return-Path: <tytso@thunk.org>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A424E129476 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:49:59 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thunk.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TU7Tug_7fGeS for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:49:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from imap.thunk.org (imap.thunk.org [IPv6:2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:be03]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4D04129432 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:49:57 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=thunk.org; s=ef5046eb; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=5SLPbUwTnE/24xaOqyWH1EqLLBDYUmnUl8dWEaOkAUo=; b=WpzQ/dOF+aVVdrjmRvopKeqL/SmPMy/1u9qrxu/pvZxpysaDU4H8zLDWHZo+oFm0YFFRYED3/13agse1TEs2nHgmuLuwRultkPfQN3J12RlmUO7m9VYQoabNgua8RcS6/fZ64LnznN57FSv+DoTmZFX3bT6DGzTfWTSWc2s9XwU=;
Received: from root (helo=callcc.thunk.org) by imap.thunk.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <tytso@thunk.org>) id 1ciwCp-0003Qd-Ji; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 04:49:39 +0000
Received: by callcc.thunk.org (Postfix, from userid 15806) id 6E2EFC00227; Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:49:37 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:49:37 -0500
From: Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>
To: willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr@riseup.net>
Subject: Re: Mailing list membership.
Message-ID: <20170301044937.v3vhw3eqgqkxpoup@thunk.org>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20170226124145.0b7b38c0@elandnews.com> <20f0d769-1937-3256-e37b-9583399c11d3@riseup.net> <20170227011852.GA5403@mx4.yitter.info> <5850e685-2f97-2bdb-87e2-0c11830e1d1c@riseup.net> <HE1PR04MB14490315646CDD5CC7DC2DBCBD570@HE1PR04MB1449.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com> <ae531393-b622-a8b3-2cdd-65a4e99c6e9f@riseup.net> <HE1PR04MB14490DE8834559F6D9D05F7EBD570@HE1PR04MB1449.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com> <60cc8784-2815-32df-0cae-7adfffd0b549@riseup.net> <20170228051843.wkh5skthuyrs5pwz@thunk.org> <bea06868-c7b9-29ec-4f63-1adcca3b9698@riseup.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <bea06868-c7b9-29ec-4f63-1adcca3b9698@riseup.net>
User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2)
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: <locally generated>
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: tytso@thunk.org
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on imap.thunk.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/JK6EAYEVAHpA64LJp9gKP7WXys8>
Cc: IETF discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 04:49:59 -0000
On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 05:29:24PM -0300, willi uebelherr wrote: > > related to the problem, what Khaled explained, what is your proposal? > > What are your "compatible with internet mailing lists" mail systems? RFC 2821, Simple Mail Transfer Protocol, section 3.10.2 "To expand a list, the recipient mailer replaces the pseudo-mailbox address in the envelope with all of the expanded addresses. The return address in the envelope is changed so that all error messages generated by the final deliveries will be returned to a list administrator, not to the message originator, who generally has no control over the contents of the list and will typically find error messages annoying." This is the SMTP Envelope From field. The FROM field is not changed, but the SMTP return address is changed, so that bounces go to the mailing list administrator as opposed to the person who sends mail to the mailing list. Unfortunately, if you are using a system whose domain requests that all recipients enforce DMARC alignment, this specifically instructs recipients to bounce mail if the SMTP Envelope return address doesn't match the FROM field in the header. This means that they won't see mailing list mail as defined by the IETF Standards Track RFC 2821, which specifically says that is acceptable (and in fact a good thing) to change the SMTP envelope return address so that bounces (caused by people changing where they work, etc.) go to an administrator who can deal with them. But if the mailing list administrators gets too may bounces, and it's because the sending domain is requesting that mail be bounced, the only thing they can do is to unsubscribe the sender or the recipient. Hence mailing list systems that enforce DMARC, or request DMARC processing, are fundamentally incompatible with mailing lists as defined by section 3.10.2 of RFC 2821. If you want to participate in such mailing list, one of the best ways is to change to a mailing list system that doesn't do DMARC. Best regards, - Ted
- Re: Mailing list membership. John Levine
- Mailing list membership. Khaled Omar
- Re: Mailing list membership. S Moonesamy
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. S Moonesamy
- Re: Mailing list membership. Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Mailing list membership. Kazunori ANDO
- Re: Mailing list membership. Michael StJohns
- Re: Mailing list membership. Bob Hinden
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. Michael StJohns
- Re: Mailing list membership. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Mailing list membership. David Morris
- yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list member… John Levine
- Re: Mailing list membership. willi uebelherr
- Re: Mailing list membership. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Mailing list membership. Barry Leiba
- Re: Mailing list membership. Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Re: Mailing list members… willi uebelherr
- Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Re: Mailing list members… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Re: Mailing list members… willi uebelherr
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… willi uebelherr
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Carsten Bormann
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Dave Crocker
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Carsten Bormann
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… John R Levine
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Dave Crocker
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Carsten Bormann
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Philip Homburg
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Brandon Long
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Philip Homburg
- Re: yet more DMARC stuff, was Re: Mailing list me… Martin Rex