Re: hampering progress

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Wed, 21 April 2021 20:50 UTC

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Subject: Re: hampering progress
To: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>, ietf@ietf.org
References: <93fedaa0-5ad0-dcc0-ff01-43b8e1c97989@mtcc.com> <19f2b2e1-6365-480a-86f2-111377cac2de@www.fastmail.com> <b69b742f-bc1d-9e00-7119-ff5b3ad6cfc5@gmail.com> <58650505-ce3c-e99f-fdf8-89e52ccb185e@mtcc.com> <1e150d1b-328f-071d-77a1-9cb7824abbd4@joelhalpern.com> <9dcb5b2a-a8aa-c642-d43d-f9b345ccba70@network-heretics.com> <d60ac36e-726f-9567-99b1-83635ecefe86@mtcc.com> <2e7ad776-ac19-f7b6-9c1a-bc43f14954ef@network-heretics.com> <efb1f657-2157-828a-8cf1-f743bc936f3d@mtcc.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 08:50:36 +1200
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On 22-Apr-21 06:35, Michael Thomas wrote:
> 
> On 4/21/21 10:56 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
> 
>> Bottom line: Anyone who wants to promote an idea within IETF has to 
>> find some way of building consensus around that idea.   And any time 
>> there's inertia opposing that idea, building that consensus isn't 
>> likely to be easy, even if it's a very good idea.    It's still the 
>> job of the proponents of that idea to try to build consensus; nobody 
>> else is going to do it for them.
> 
> How can you "build consensus" when you aren't allowed to even talk about 
> it? I don't go to meetings. I don't want to go to meetings. Does that 
> mean I am excluded from "building consensus"? 

No, but (coupled with the move to on-line meetings with all their
sociological disadvantages) it really makes it much, much harder.

> Are there other ways to 
> "build consensus" that I'm not aware of? I'm not even trying to "build 
> consensus", per se. I'm just trying to get people to consider whether an 
> alternative might be better and if not, why not.

Traditionally this list right here is where you would do that. Or if you
scope it as a Transport Area problem, tsv-area@ietf.org ("A mailing list
for discussions on topics pertinent to the IETF Transport and Services
Area (TSV)").

> Does that "hamper progress"? Especially after about a half dozen 
> messages and less than 24 hours?

As I said, it seemed a bit abrupt but it is within a WG Chair's remit.
> But this list doesn't seem to be the answer because it's mostly about 
> ietf process and the right technical people are definitionally going to 
> be hit and miss.

That is indeed this list's current problem; hence, tsv-area might be
a better bet.

Regards
   Brian