RE: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room
Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> Wed, 21 April 2021 19:55 UTC
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From: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>
To: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room
Thread-Topic: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 19:55:48 +0000
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+1 As my colleague said when we have discussed a similar problem: "closed club". It was in relation to different WG. I do not know anything about QUIC WG. Ed/ From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thomas Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 10:38 PM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room On 4/21/21 12:00 PM, Lars Eggert wrote: Hi, for context, and to correct some misrepresentations, here is my reply to Michael from the QUIC list. I counted the number of messages from the rest of the working group before one of the chairs called it off topic and for me to go way and it was 4 or maybe 5. And "as chair" is not a suggestion, it is a command. It sure seems to me that the number of messages a transport protocol needs to start a session is pretty on topic, or at least of interest. Getting told to go elsewhere *is* dramatic, if not predictable. Mike Thanks, Lars Begin forwarded message: From: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org<mailto:lars@eggert.org>> Subject: Re: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Date: April 21, 2021 at 19:46:57 GMT+3 To: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com<mailto:mike@mtcc.com>> Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com<mailto:phill@hallambaker.com>>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com<mailto:matt.joras@gmail.com>>, Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com<mailto:lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>> Hi, On 2021-4-21, at 19:11, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com<mailto:mike@mtcc.com>> wrote: I am a newcomer. I came here against my better judgement as I stated on the IETF list. I have emails from you in my IETF mail archive at least as far back as 2006. But I assume you mean that you are a newcomer to the QUIC WG. I immediately had my head chopped off and told to go away by a working group chair in less than 24 hours. I don't think you're helping your case by using dramatic phrases. To recap: You brought a proposal that had been discussed elsewhere to the QUIC WG list. You got feedback from a number of different participants on your proposal. The discussion veered away from QUIC to other protocols that this WG is not working on. A chair suggested you continue the discussion on a mailing list better suited to your topic. If the number of packets exchanged in the initial handshake of a transport protocol is off topic, I am speechless. My better judgement wasn't that it was off topic, it was that this outcome is the ordinary behavior of insular IETF working groups. A number of participants have commented on this already, for example, pointing out that the number of round trips matter much more than the number of packets, and that in their opinion your suggestion would not lead to further substantial enough gains. You then moved the topic of the discussion to why Google (and I assume other companies) are not signing their zones and offered theories as to why that is, which is not a topic of relevance to this WG. Hence the request to discuss it elsewhere. I also got told that signing a zone is tantamount to "boiling the ocean". You're misquoting David. He said: On 2021-4-20, at 20:20, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote: I'm not saying that a 3-packet handshake would be bad, I'm saying that it's not worth boiling the ocean to remove 2 packets. Nowhere in that sentence or the rest of David's email do I see any mention of signing zones. As IETF chair, do you agree with that? Because if it's true then there are serious issues with DNSSec and we should do something about it. I think it's nonsense, fwiw. Again, not a topic for *this* mailing list. Mike, and what exactly are those venues? tia. I'd start at DNSOP and ask if there is a more appropriate list. Thanks, Lars
- Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: DNS vs PKI, was Quic: the elephant in the room John Levine
- Re: DNS vs PKI, was Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room David Conrad
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room David Conrad
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- DNSSEC architecture vs reality (was: Re: Quic: th… Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality (was: Re: Quic… Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality (was: Re: Quic… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Andrew McConachie
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Marco Davids
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality John C Klensin
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality John C Klensin
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… John Levine
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Mark Andrews
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Andrew McConachie
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Patrik Fältström
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Eliot Lear
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Patrik Fältström
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Patrik Fältström
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… John R Levine
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Jim Fenton
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Nico Williams
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Donald Eastlake
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Michael Thomas
- Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Lars Eggert
- RE: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker