Re: Quic: the elephant in the room
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Sun, 11 April 2021 22:52 UTC
Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6981A3A2224 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.4
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LPqtdsXtaeai for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yb1-f170.google.com (mail-yb1-f170.google.com [209.85.219.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEFB53A2221 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-yb1-f170.google.com with SMTP id 65so12986962ybc.4 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ADSXPlxFB6idh6XdvVXI95U/bPArtT2/DkpgWBgR+vk=; b=lyM7pofrYnlpVxAfyw1/N0qAD1Foohl2XM2LgTIDLrrNy1DTDc1Qm4sgO226GniBy7 YmLbMHsMQllPS9bXwKd6fvPPQooftSN9x++zSDW1DZxcmtFl3gg6rh9ltDH2nebTvAA/ BQc5oB30hXFy0pbaGnnhVi7paEOo1tY+Uq3LB5UzQiNOCD/ca/UtIHvmUBQaKrgZjP5S d8rsQJbJjuCgrsWVH4a3K7yvPiWJ5xSR+xZBsDiJ9rnEcdNdRUfoTCCsnaWlaXLm3h0j 4vZ0IgmYgIq3xDQ0pfLUBKSg8J7fY2VzQIfyOm+j3RXiYWvRtceVMvtCRskr8ViVhy62 tq+g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TMMiwy98eDf/H0xbZf7aRyDSotmlZ3TVlipRhL/ijAfbWGSyo hL/rK5/dygZ6oDG64Dae0xkb4PKYcCHMfVUpq9iGMpgfynE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz4OAV7UvsvxBkSUtMWC7xAveFK3yOrm4W9Wszr+lNY0Q5V6KwugUaXaMiv5EPGQhtBK/rUyGMnPsnLz/cZNys=
X-Received: by 2002:a5b:48c:: with SMTP id n12mr34260451ybp.273.1618181550367; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3b25c77d-e721-e86d-6c34-a90039aab0e2@mtcc.com> <CAMm+Lwhi8xwFgZJL7jod2g4urZt_f+dm0tNi+3y1osqOfch2mQ@mail.gmail.com> <3593a01f-73f4-7d03-a85b-dff64a8b070e@mtcc.com> <CABrd9STZXonBDvWB7Z36H2mD20Juubc01TUmEvpfWkvJggQVOQ@mail.gmail.com> <ab6bcbf0-646c-9f2d-5f98-fdc3e9ba27bf@mtcc.com> <CABrd9STEqvgexYKTUdFqn1zu=U2+h92_aDS6rM=8xcwibNJM3A@mail.gmail.com> <YHMc54xe1Mnx2U2y@straasha.imrryr.org> <CABrd9SShpOnSpshnMZSag4ZVp6ic5tURFoH9RzT0WCXDHyxgkA@mail.gmail.com> <YHN5ObR0eqea8Mrc@straasha.imrryr.org>
In-Reply-To: <YHN5ObR0eqea8Mrc@straasha.imrryr.org>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 18:52:20 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwgoQ=2PB0v3ySd9TRy_P9=9cS8=n6wbbr5ZNsV4DWoGQw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Quic: the elephant in the room
To: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007de73105bfba4076"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Q6PrFFmBW6BeNM2U_b9iy-k2dzU>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:52:33 -0000
Since people continue to debate the CA vs DNS Registrar thing, I will just point out that we haven't had a case where an outright criminal operation has set up as a CA. In the DNS space we have had fully accredited registrars that have been just that. Also, the WebPKI is not designed to provide confidentiality or even authenticate the parties. It is designed to make electronic commerce possible in an open network by establishing accountability. Back in 1995, export crypto was limited to 40 bits. People seem to forget that. If people have a limited understanding of what the WebPKI is designed to do and ignore all the parts that don't meet their expectations, well of course they will end up assuming something else could do the same. But that doesn't make it true. I have never seen much if any value to domain validated certs at all. Just use raw keys or self signed certs and you will get pretty much the same benefit. I suggested Web browsers stop giving out the silly WARNING THIS CONNECTION IS SECURED BUT NOT ENOUGH messages back in the 1990s. If a browser is going to accept an entirely insecure connection, it should not complain when something better is offered, but it shouldn't show a padlock icon either. The WebPKI is all about accountability through incorporation credentials. That is why we never suggested it as the basis for DKIM technology. If there was going to be a PKI backing up DKIM it would be advising sender reputation.
- Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: DNS vs PKI, was Quic: the elephant in the room John Levine
- Re: DNS vs PKI, was Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room David Conrad
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room David Conrad
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- DNSSEC architecture vs reality (was: Re: Quic: th… Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality (was: Re: Quic… Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality (was: Re: Quic… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Andrew McConachie
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Marco Davids
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Michael Thomas
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Nico Williams
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Salz, Rich
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality John C Klensin
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality John C Klensin
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Keith Moore
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Michael Thomas
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… John Levine
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Mark Andrews
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Andrew McConachie
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Patrik Fältström
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Eliot Lear
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Patrik Fältström
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Patrik Fältström
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… John R Levine
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Nico Williams
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Jim Fenton
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSSEC architecture vs reality Petite Abeille
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Nico Williams
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Donald Eastlake
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: new RRTYPEs, was DNSSEC architecture vs reali… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Michael Thomas
- Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Lars Eggert
- RE: Fwd: Quic: the Elephant in the Room Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Ben Laurie
- Re: Quic: the elephant in the room Phillip Hallam-Baker