Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)

Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk> Tue, 06 April 2021 00:27 UTC

Return-Path: <eclipticplane2002@yahoo.co.uk>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279FC3A2E4C for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:27:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.846
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FbLskGPIeJxd for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71AAA3A2E57 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1617668851; bh=O/v1inLNQVh0+LLsc+WE+cXP0gIOoNL2YrrHKaIwFgQ=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=OGiOmx5KEMiRMTbXL2MS9w1NtY2XShBeC9GCv+IDKP6o1mSmO3zBcgJmB0MDMSte4S1gk15ASzZCSyko6lszN9vuOVTeyddEH9N/Itsb++wzIdegRXr9lud0N8Y3NYCBkftF6jtxaPaSQDBWbw0TOVg53j8pw3eZs9s4dfmniy+OUdCK0WChVItolgjKmoXkrH7jQrMbKASvUT3pBMilJQlm21woe1TDNKWtI5+jM7nEpoEnebI4iClqE96c2WBKqoKjoi4A63jlwTmBjO7923ekXh/hQ+T9Ue5iTPJwzSO+aZDZHooFBill4x/yJpozJm7JGbWZGTf7+C31h6ZMZg==
X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1617668851; bh=7sLFNqHL5taDYc7pu57jAKDcnf2PF6u6Pp+u0V3R3hZ=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=ZW3+l1J2CTjf8Vo6N4Om52wh3waplsTtvw6nl5t75u2wEbrAL9Lx+KBbZYmPVoSuBa5L9Sun1MfwfmnZU4tGClIhWOCopTv4Rgz2X5OQvJq6hWY1v7dZpsNoEO4/X7feOopl4AfX7Ka8A9AuRXVaqYX8wnFu6hujkCVMdq3adYYtHpWQ0IR3iRqs5ax50pCkgoVfAMA7wA0xMbWMCttpq93Hj6FLqEn6bSIW0/isI5nhB4GJi0FFiR5Wj1gB8blQHiXlLCCH2Pb4x+iGHl0l/lYQCAjd97G42bMcLGEeCF5kD3vUsezYWCYeduPgCDzT1Tv2KckHMg+KDm4EVApjNw==
X-YMail-OSG: 0fJCW.4VM1nIpWOGmPXF4uepjjPeWkC8IuRkOr07A82Arp91Idhutfk9JFc3yx8 S2OFbmeqAdW3AO1KySjHTIlOSru5eSMdBEgPk3ST5PRBTQkFtRR1VJgIek1N_8WHdTx9UJzhFG.C beVEXdV1QEg3yJOiHW6WkbnuyryLWhV1aR.PiZ06EeYsqzf0ZP_xtCEgmezdHrG2SbTHURwQiqmX uI33YhLIkkAVdB2e0tCMgqwsMONUwBjZLj6LpnD3w4dytOTYd0cvNTJrBHO6xGhYZuNy.u2u1Qf4 4X16PdlB6UrFuLOx5JYiNkvZxZWbQIaXKzjzK0bp12LeIr.eFlN_P76A_xRyDyOa210GP7GbMgpn 9u9D3RNScH9qdGwVZ5eUhdvNGN8TAHBzn0Rlwg7cw72ZZwHP65X9CqzJQdLOYdXlGrWd4NNXz1pt x0me0U0T2YjXS7QWlJ1w9uTxkmek.vqvPJrOPrrn9BEWlYHSapkURDpYMECizhRJj2A_9erB6qZD fzgqE6RFfZ4UQYM_h7rbGpdDpo8JupNsMkQ_ge0uxptm2JxIXVigp_0lfDEKpLiq22gIEPJ4__WF XOXjrQIFcYmgv.7Ibu7q.q8JPdk4jTUn57Pn9DLjZam7oPzb43uU1XqNR4ZLLQGg3O_EX9Flp_6T q_3PgpDKTj71EFdBHsIE8PEsgB5KEzTucP7otB6uKw7YXTzf9YT.uCybsl9ZO1NP93Pw_MXlqC7Q pnOBK4wqlBR80dWXVXGd4SjWQ8z7wByHcRHdK.Cc6pYmdFaihffTAkmR9Cad00grDeOA8GH2mNGK NKSMvW8afVwYA2N7mPHOkTAEDk8n4FH6P6R1tiYU4emCK46WK1CKGAriYkYmjQymmjb_oTYL5vut G20CFKJblhbbF9hf1KY2pn1GMFeuMfeyGVV90n3ZWTp_hzDGMEjr8okm6R9O_nvc8UEOINOXz2NC 8LXYzPrTMFD8Yxcrc7PR4fqBLj23fNnzC3mpLda7mt__DHepwDSBDlvA3lL8V7Mxv8UMzjyzJjDX o3IjWosklju5RNmHTrZoQ7fRgXl_5XIYKIXOs6yW.hCl1eLImKI45lL7.Ylf0aUNjTvThQaRHJlW WLdDsPrV3ubGoOR.2QdmdWBdR1Bn8gbc_lyM4CWtRH9NH6FwVtTKFtSPkeZvt4JRm2_il7652AI5 WFsYkNlW75JWF6SktiIVxcIFamejr.vFRFDrU9FeUQvLIm3uLPu5blGqYcWjDpomBsazShl5tl76 kEWkyPT9nHnenllb5WaPpEAL05PYjz9J4UWJbPuGrPBkb_cYe6r3xoT09T1HqI2f61kacXRK1_Wo mdt4QSyM5aTBF_sp20JO4ha15EuNg8QGvN4QIdLXHMc9zXKhLXkB_7g3zwjTlWQ9mHLfXjdXScht UwTE2QrfiIZiqy56zgiBZEBWkMWLZKCMhdmdhEnC9mUHyppc5jONHRvPIiGyH0uxFRX_IRVwcnmm nJ0T2Xjb3FwyrFLeDBgsw3x_K7jJmOOQKoglWA8nzUBuVUsD7_DRddAluacuST1TPKWmFTF38Ken Hz4pxPMKAvKYgjHPNhFI.KNMM7oC0h1tTBqMN9.4L9BC1Lc5ymjRCNgFetn7i5SxRFaKTZR5FY1a yKL_KVergNrQ0y3N.4TzQbUm3IHDefkPSVUAKOTY08LwGKRxupGXYZFyK.8BJwY.8RC7Y7jLm5gk QzkAM7aqtzDnvJJ7576LO95cvF2WYeSoNxznsdDIY5w9Ypb75kPY1z_hy0qE89_go1MAgUWgaLJ8 opoGd8cr_x5wuCR9KdSdIhvk5v41xhUkEGHPc07onyQKWXjIGPrVLDRxfv1CVMBUisISL9qUkX9T YHKWz2k8X10pPyenD9doUI77R9gmejOLKqELwyaz_nwSVIiXi2xXeONYxCFMamjhD_AsCcnGnVJG J1KD849CXv4uz373GNYvj.XX.9pnm59.Zp5aDkWvQ4FUwG8rayKW48UzaRK.WpAOLUZfvHfaKMbh PZuNfnS1ObulKmlRUNPYXLPw0hq.XDKF4JcAFCQIjyDg.Ds4xUkOAFHdXueG88zVoa4nXz8nzXgC 9MgJGzi3fa9dkFnV1wR_7dzgkJKNvs7IKYNrj8joKLrwVmD2EUzQ7CMWL6uBYWlY3wYxO.hASyBo .k.bR5l24hQjnJlSQoZT86qGxdeoIylaYIqszH82pjNl3kdrBRHFunhdjNNpqSzHTBtW8y.wgEHM Aq._Gx0qeL8h6QVE2uYFh8u1pA0s_86l2MpQJiQJtkOmfHEAHVDPTeRV4c4nHMSob_0eJTuFdPnl XZ5ae4FdOK4llb7szueI7zGmGGGUQSeO8SwwlySNVRON4UEvUTQ0B1FgQq.v4gX6umPVcdLh2bQc JxvG_K6lLFVbMegTjGGfuTmbGJrkbYpwBgKrXkHWpM2ibaJJ7NK56UNdZ1TltMifVl6MjFsptPGa 8AYmvnyP65eK8dIqbFdszhtITasvtI9JQIQlKwoTtZi7NEJII0WU3FmqYGCXgGD9kjNlrK1vf8PA D5Flk8Cl5aH7rBKbq612cf9hUIfXP6r81ebglLaOuxYRgSjI1_fkaapc_9YoRMk.t90YmKRsx2V_ UHbm8LVnVl59H5td2V1sH0_75M1c-
X-Sonic-MF: <eclipticplane2002@yahoo.co.uk>
Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 00:27:31 +0000
Received: by kubenode540.mail-prod1.omega.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2e5b9181a9d297a7735e6ee0c061d4ce; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 00:27:28 +0000 (UTC)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E457E390-48D4-402A-BB65-A00DBE9F1BFB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Subject: Re: WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:27:24 +1000
Message-Id: <EA0B9C35-4B71-43E5-9E44-FF180E44732C@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <89383942-204e-a94e-3350-42bfb4165ba0@comcast.net>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <89383942-204e-a94e-3350-42bfb4165ba0@comcast.net>
To: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net>
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/y8en2dH7bYfYOCbBKj-Ovr1Wkd8>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 00:27:47 -0000

I agree: TERM will not be a technical workgroup, and will not be conducting technical discussion.

It's worth noting that TERM is specifically being chartered initially to produce an INFORMATIONAL document sans BCP tag, which sort-of gets around the BCP would-affect-all-IETF problem. Why, those aren't recommendations at all. Not binding on the IETF or how it works. Nothing to see here.

I'm sure we can all think of documents, throughout history, that started out as simply for information, and turned into something else entirely. And I'd like to point out the CAPS standards keywords used  throughout draft-knodel-terminology, which are not at all appropriate in informational documents that cannot make such recommendations. Really, starting out as informational is a minor speedbump on the road to success, and the controlling aspirations of that document are quite clear.

Establishing the TERM workgroup gives Niels and his colleagues a space in which to practise and better their authoritarian thought policing (sorry, 'governance'), out of the general view, in a safe area away from disturbance. Think of TERM as the Protocol Police Academy. They're citizens on patrol!

If you have opinions on TERM's formation, please do submit them to iesg@ietf.org before that deadline. Today.

thanks

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

> On 6 Apr 2021, at 09:12, Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> For some reason I can't find the original announcement, so I'll just do this bare.
> 
> 
> 
> Given the general language of RFC 2418, my best take is that it's inappropriate for the IETF to charter a working group on this topic.   It's not a technical topic, and it does not fit the general WG model.
> 
> To my best recollection (which means I may have missed one), we've never chartered a WG solely for the purpose of writing documents that purport to modify the way the IETF does business.  Such documents have usually come either as IESG / IAB authored/sponsored BCPs.  Indeed, BCP 95 was just such a document.   WGs have been (should be?) for technical activities related to specifying how the Internet works. 
> 
> <minirant>Technical WGs at least have the possibility of achieving consensus based on the analysis of tradeoffs of hard facts and good analysis.  A "WG" such as TERM may fail of achieving even WG consensus, let alone community consensus (especially given the current ongoing discussions) and there will be no fall back to fact analysis possible.   I can't see any way an appeal could be managed in those circumstances and I strongly suggest we do not try to place this in the WG model.</minirant>
> 
> Since the proposed charter for Term will effect more than just the standards process (e.g. it potentially effects all of the current and future RFC streams), it would appear this should be handled either as an IAB activity (either authored, or referred to a workshop), or deferred until the RFCED group completes its work and can have this assigned as a work item.
> 
> My first preference is to do this as an IAB Workshop report with no BCP tag and with as dispassionate an analysis and output language as possible.  E.g. explanatory language vs directive.
> 
> Mike
> 
>