Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss (Re: New Version Notification for ...)
Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Wed, 06 March 2024 22:30 UTC
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Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2024 23:29:57 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>, 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>, draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss (Re: New Version Notification for ...)
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On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 01:10:06PM -0800, Tom Herbert wrote: > > If my packet has e.g.: my new QoS HBH header mandatory, a router not > > supporting that HBH header > > will discaard it. > > I don't believe that's feasible, with RFC8200 even HBH Options is not > mandatory to process. A router can forward a packet just by inspecting IPv6 > header with no regard as to what the next header is. The Option Type identifiers are internally encoded such that their highest-order 2 bits specify the action that must be taken if the processing IPv6 node does not recognize the Option Type: 00 - skip over this option and continue processing the header. 01 - discard the packet. 10 - discard the packet and .. 11 - discard the packet and .. What am i overlooking ? Cheers Toerless > > Tom > > > > > So it does not matter what tht router would have done with the flow label. > > And when the router adds support for that QoS HBH header, then the spec > > for that HBH header > > could say: ROUTER MUST NOT PERFORM WHATEVER FLOW-LABEL PROCESSING IT > > THOUGHT WAS RIGHT, but only > > what the spec for that HBH header says. > > > > Stds wise this would mean the HBH header is an update to RFC8200 given how > > i don't think we have > > a more current spec for it. > > > > True/False/Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > The goal of the extension header i am proposing does include the > > feature to allow failure of > > > > > > QoS experiments, even those we may have worked to standardize (as > > opposed to experimental, informational etc..). > > > > > > > > > > Why limit it to QoS? Why not make it a general “host to network > > signalling” capability? > > > > > > > > Divide and conquer. > > > > > > I think of host to network signaling as being a signal carrier and > > > signal content. Logically, what we want is one common carrier that can > > > carry different types of signals for different purposes. FAST is a > > > proposal for such a common carrier. It defines one new HBH option type > > > and has a base header format that includes a type field that describes > > > the format of the rest of the option contents (i.e. the signal > > > content). > > > > Sure, but that point does not address the issue i mentioned in that i > > would not want to enable > > FAST processing on P nodes, because its for example to complex, so enable > > it only on PE nodes, but > > the QoS functions i do want to enable on P nodes. Hence it seems i'd have > > a lot more complexity > > to manage if both where in the same HBH. > > > > > > But one of the results of having gained gaining experience is that > > some options may have been burned now, > > > > and may need to be redefined to serve their purpose best. Such as for > > example if we want to add flow label > > > > to IPv4, i think we're not at the stage of knowing a single target > > semantic, but we know that multiple > > > > semantics would conflict. So at best IMHO if we where to introduce > > flow label into IPv4, then it should > > > > have an additional multiplexer. But that would then create a better > > IPv4 solution than IPv6. Aka: i'd rather > > > > only do that after we have an IPv6 extension header for QoS that > > provides the same or superset function. > > > > > > Agreed. This is the point of draft-herbert-ipv4-eh. The goal is to > > > backport features like EH and flow label into IPv4, not to improve > > > upon them. If we make such features work better in IPv4 than IPv6 then > > > that makes transitioning to IPv6 more difficult which is really the > > > ultimate goal. > > > > Its just that we don't have a working interoperable Internet scope > > solution for Flow Label in IPv6, > > but at best working experiements in well controlled networks such as this > > CERN experiment. And that > > should mean something for what we write about it in your IPv4 extension > > header doc. > > > > > > Not 100% sure, but i think the risk of functional collision for Flow > > Label is smaller for packets with > > > > a new mandatory to support extension header. Therefore it might be > > possible to assign new semantics > > > > to the Flow Label for packets with such extension headers without > > creating deployment clasehes > > > > (to avoid wasting the 20 bits). > > > > > > That would be really difficult, there are two many devices that have > > > already burned in semantics of flow label. Besides, if interpreting > > > > Well... how would those devices work in a network using the CERN method ? > > Aka: any hard-burned > > semantics is a problem anyhow, especially because we as IETF wouldn't know > > for a standards track > > document like yous (AFAIK) be able to specify that functionality. > > > > But we can always override semantic for "new packets". Thats for example > > what we did for IPv4 Multicast. Those where packets with previously > > unassigned addresses, and > > when those are used, the whole semantic of forwarding changes for the > > packet and the > > interpretation of destination address. Likewise do i see no reason to now > > think along the same > > ways when i add a HBH header and hence change the meaning of flow-label > > for those fields. > > > > > the flow label correctly requires an EH, why not just put the > > > information in the EH and avoid touching the flow label? > > > > Sure. Is it worth the trouble saving 20 bits... ? > > But i see it differently: I always liked the idea of flow-label, so i'd > > hate for an unusable > > header to lay around in our base header in IPv6, and should your work > > progress equally in IPv4. > > It's ugly! ;-) So lets figure out how we could make best use of it... > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2024 at 10:31:09AM -0800, Tom Herbert wrote: > > > > > >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 6:41 AM Tim Chown > > > > > >> <Tim.Chown=40jisc.ac.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On 4 Mar 2024, at 23:02, Tom Herbert <tom= > > 40herbertland.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 12:37 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> > > wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Dear 6MAN-WG: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I have just posted an extremely rough draft > > draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss, to help start a discussion > > > > > >>> about common IPv6 extension headers for (mostly) stateless QoS > > beyond what we can do with just DSCP. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Hi Toerless, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> You might want to look at draft-herbert-fast and > > > > > >>> draft-herbert-host2netsig. It looks like these have similar > > goals. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> And that is similar in spirit to what the CERN experiments are > > doing with flow label semantics, which would/could be HbH header > > information if then insertion penalty were not so high. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hi Tim, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The CERN experiment might be okay as an experiment, but > > overloading > > > > > >> the twenty bit information of flow label is neither scalable nor > > > > > >> standardizable. This is especially true for those proposals that > > want > > > > > >> to set some bits differently within the same flow and expect that > > > > > >> routers will ignore those bits for ECMP hash. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am interested in what you mean by " if then insertion penalty > > were > > > > > >> not so high". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Tom > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cc-v6ops-wlcg-flow-label-marking-02.html > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> And there are others, each doing something slightly different, > > when we’d ideally have one EH to rule them all. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Tim > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Right now this is a discussion draft not intended to become RFC > > because it's my impression that the > > > > > >>> 6MAN community might benefit from some useful summary of how > > DetNet (and potentially other WGs) might > > > > > >>> use this work, but this would not be part of a final spec draft, > > and likewise i have a wide range of > > > > > >>> open questions instead of answers, and i included those > > questions into the draft seeking for feedback from > > > > > >>> 6MAN. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Overall, i didn't want to go down a possible rabbit hole of > > working on details of the spec if it just > > > > > >>> turns out to involve insurmountable IETF process obtacles to go > > this route. For example, we could continue to > > > > > >>> standardize all advanced forwarding functions only into MPLS and > > ignore IPv6 as DetNet has done so far > > > > > >>> (*mumble ;-). > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The lack of such extension headers has IMHO held back innovation > > into better (stateless) QoS, especially > > > > > >>> in many controlled networks since at least 25 years, for example > > when draft-stoica-diffserv-dps > > > > > >>> was abandomed because it was too painfull trying to get to > > through all the IETF IPv6 bureaucracy - > > > > > >>> for just one algorithm, when there are so many that would > > deserve experimentation in specific > > > > > >>> networks. But given the good recent/ongoing work for example > > into I-D.ietf-6man-hbh-processing, > > > > > >>> i would hope that we're closer now to actually wanting our > > extensibility of IPv6 actually be used > > > > > >>> by the industry (instead of all this happening only in MPLS). > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> With DetNet we are too in the situation that we have multiple > > candidates on the table and IMHO > > > > > >>> it will not be very useufl trying to run a lottery for a single > > "winner" and standardize just that. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I have seen a lot more success in the industry by just letting > > different algorithms compete with > > > > > >>> each othrer in products and let the market decide. That was > > quite a lot happening in e.g.: packet > > > > > >>> scheduling in routers at least since the end of the 90th when in > > my impression every new > > > > > >>> hardware forwarding router implemented it's own new packet > > scheduler based on the just hired lead > > > > > >>> engineers PhD thesis. And over a period of 20 years, a lot of > > commonality and industry > > > > > >>> knowledge evolved in that space. For this type of scheduling, > > this innovation was possible because it did not > > > > > >>> require new packet headers, but just a lot of (ab)use of DSCP > > and/or more or less horrenduous > > > > > >>> QoS configurations. But for those solutions that do require > > additional in-packet-QoS metadata, > > > > > >>> we never created a viable method where it was easy for the > > innovators/implementers to concentrate > > > > > >>> on the novelties of the algorithm in question and get all the > > knucklehead "how to packetize and what generic > > > > > >>> requirements/functionalities" be provided as much as possible by > > an existing framework/RFC. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> So, i'd be very happy to find interest to help progress this > > work, aka: writing something > > > > > >>> that ultimately would become a draft-ietf-6man-common-qos-exthr > > or the like. I have tentatively > > > > > >>> asked for a slot for IETF119 6MAN to present and get feedback, > > if you think that would be time well > > > > > >>> spent, pls. chime in. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Cheers > > > > > >>> Toerless, for the authors > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Mon, Mar 04, 2024 at 12:30:53PM -0800, > > internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> A new version of Internet-Draft > > draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss-00.txt > > > > > >>> has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to > > the > > > > > >>> IETF repository. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Name: draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss > > > > > >>> Revision: 00 > > > > > >>> Title: Considerations for common QoS IPv6 extension header(s) > > > > > >>> Date: 2024-03-04 > > > > > >>> Group: Individual Submission > > > > > >>> Pages: 27 > > > > > >>> URL: > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss-00.txt > > > > > >>> Status: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss/ > > > > > >>> HTMLized: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eckert-6man-qos-exthdr-discuss > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Abstract: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> This document is written to start a discussion and collect > > opinions > > > > > >>> and ansers to questions raised in this document on the issue of > > > > > >>> defining IPv6 extension headers for DETNET-WG functionality with > > > > > >>> IPv6. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The IETF Secretariat > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > > > >>> ipv6@ietf.org > > > > > >>> Administrative Requests: > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > > >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > > > >>> ipv6@ietf.org > > > > > >>> Administrative Requests: > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > > >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > --- > > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --- > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de
- [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-eckert… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Ole Trøan
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedback … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Dale W. Carder
- Re: [IPv6] 6MAN: looking for feedback to draft-ec… Tim Chown
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Tom Herbert
- Re: [IPv6] Flow label BCP [was: looking for feedb… Mark Smith