RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3
Nicolas Popp <nico@realnames.com> Tue, 04 December 2001 18:00 UTC
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:56:31 -0800
From: Nicolas Popp <nico@realnames.com>
Subject: RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3
To: 'James Seng/Personal' <jseng@pobox.org.sg>, YangWoo Ko <newcat@peacenet.or.kr>
Cc: ietf-irnss@lists.elistx.com
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James. I think you are missing Mr Ko’s point. John asserts that keyword Systems are best viewed as layer 3 services. At the same time, all the Keyword System implementers are saying that this not a faithful reflection of reality. In fact, what does “real-world deployment” experience tells us? It tells us the following: 1. None of the deployed Keyword systems (AOL, Netpia, CNNIC, TWNIC, 3722, RealNames…) have been deployed as yellow page services (layer 3). The breadth of their data and registered metadata (today) actually makes them inferior directory solutions to the Yahoo or the Looksmart of the world (or layer 4 services like search engines). As far as local information, beside country and language, they don’t host any local information like the one John describes for layer 3 services. 2. On the other hand, ALL deployed Keyword Systems have been deployed for direct navigation (AOL, Netpia, CNNIC, TWNIC, 3721, RealNames…). In the context of direct navigation, a Keyword System unambiguously looks like a white page service (with a strong uniqueness requirement (each tuple {common name, country, language, service type} is unique). That, on the other hand, does look like a layer 2 service to me from what I read in John’s paper. Now, you can argue that this is a choice of business model. However, it would be missing the larger picture and the larger picture is: “how do you solve the chicken and egg problem of deploying a large-scale, high quality directory service on the network”? The answer from all the Keywords System has been the same: first you lay an "egg". Laying an egg means you restrict the cope of the facets and build a layer two system with a focus on one differentiated application that destination directory services cannot compete with and that users want (direct navigation in all scripts with simple names that have no syntax). Once you have enough data, deployment and adoption, you build the "chicken" (you had more metadata and build a layer 3 service). What I am saying is that layer 2 service must come first and then can grow into differentiated directory services. Beside business models, that’s why all Keyword Systems are layer 2 systems. They have been trying to bootstrap layer two for 4 years now. They are indeed layer two services. They could not be anything else. -Nico -----Original Message----- From: James Seng/Personal [mailto:jseng@pobox.org.sg] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:38 AM To: YangWoo Ko Cc: ietf-irnss@lists.elistx.com Subject: Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Ko, I think you got my point. IDN success or failure is really independent of IRNSS. We do know that whatever the case, there are certain limitation of IDN whereby IRNSS is designed to solve. If there are Korean keyword providers (and there are many!) who have technical requirements to bring forward, please help them to bring them to this group. I undestand communication is going to be a problem but that is where you can help. I am sure John and others here are happy to hear them. John's draft is unique in the sense that there is a "business model" section in it but it is definately not a norm. But lets try to keep business issues out of it unless of course John feels that he wants feedback on his "business plan section". If that is the case, I have no comments :-) -James Seng ----- Original Message ----- From: "YangWoo Ko" <newcat@peacenet.or.kr> To: "James Seng/Personal" <jseng@pobox.org.sg> Cc: <ietf-irnss@lists.elistx.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:49 PM Subject: Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 > On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:59:23PM +0800, James Seng/Personal wrote: > > I believe the norm of the IETF has not take existing business > > requirements into consideration. Their technical input, however, would > > be appreciated. > > Dear Jame Seng, > > Thank you for comment. I did not mention "direct navigaion" as a business > requirement. This is required for Klensin's search model to fulfill its > basic purpose - "Save our DNS ! Let it work and be used as it was designed > for !" > > There have been several approaches to fill up the difference between DNS > itself and what (non Latin script) people expect DNS to be. As there was > no standard to address this issue, commercial companies jumped into this > area to mine gold. These miners happened to (under)mine DNS as a side > effect. So, we are hearing emergency call from DNS related areas. IDN and > Klensin's search is going to answer this call. > > If IDN WG succeeded in standardization and we suceeded in deploying it, > (personally I really hope so) it could relieve this burden and Klensin's > search would concentrate on other issues. But, when considering Klensin's > search, we would better not assume so many things. So, I still think that > some name service which supports "direct navigation" and hence serves as > an alternative to "internationalized network resource name" is needed > to lessen unnecessary and even harmful overload on DNS and to prevent > Internet be tangled along boarders of "so-called" keyword service > providers. > > My best regards > > -- > /*------------------------------------------------ > YangWoo Ko : newcat@peacenet.or.kr > PeaceNet / Director > ------------------------------------------------*/
- reading...? bmanning
- Re: reading...? Michael Mealling
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 James Seng/Personal
- Re: reading...? John C Klensin
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Yves Arrouye
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Yves Arrouye
- Keywords, direct navigation, and search layer 2 (… John C Klensin
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Yves Arrouye
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Nicolas Popp
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine
- RE: "Layering" terminology (was: Re: "so-called" … Keith Teare
- "Layering" terminology (was: Re: "so-called" keyw… John C Klensin
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 John C Klensin
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Nicolas Popp
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 James Seng/Personal
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Maynard Kang
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 John C Klensin
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 John C Klensin
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 James Seng/Personal
- RE: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Nicolas Popp
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 James Seng/Personal
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 James Seng/Personal
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine
- Re: "so-called" keyword and layer 3 James Seng/Personal
- "so-called" keyword and layer 3 YangWoo Ko