Re: [Moq] Charter adjustment

 I agree with Lucas.

Ensuring uncoordinated middleboxes can improve MoQ content delivery seems
like an impossible task, or at least out of scope for this working group.
Ensuring coordinated middleboxes/CDNs can improve MoQ content delivery
seems very much in scope.

HTTPS proxies have been around for a long time, and MoQ shares many of
those properties.

Ian

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 6:40 PM Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:34 PM Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:08 PM Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022, 10:16 Mo Zanaty (mzanaty), <mzanaty=
>>> 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with Ali and Dan that “on-path” has a specific meaning to many
>>>> networking people which is not the meaning intended in the charter. I would
>>>> contend that is a misnomer that must be removed.
>>>>
>>>> The discussion of middle boxes has been in the context of explicitly
>>>> addressing them, not them happening to be on the network path to another
>>>> endpoint and transparently mediating the packet flow addressed to that
>>>> other endpoint. That is certainly a viable use case, but not one I’ve seen
>>>> anyone mention, perhaps because QUIC encryption makes on-path mediation
>>>> very difficult.
>>>>
>>>
>>> QUIC makes uncoordinated middlebox behaviour difficult. Even detecting
>>> QUIC traffic is tricky for such boxes. When there is coordination or
>>> cooperation between endpoints and other components in the path, things are
>>> a lot smoother.
>>>
>>> The prime example of this is QUIC load balancers that can make decisions
>>> (routing/dispatching packets) based on the connection ID. The generally
>>> works by the server picking IDs based on some scheme or algorithm and
>>> sharing that with the load balancer.
>>>
>>> I think the MoQ charter needs to be clear about whether the middleboxen
>>> are expected to work on: QUIC packets as opaque blobs, the frames within
>>> QUIC packets once protection is removed by actors who have the session
>>> keys, application data in streams, datagrams, or something else.
>>>
>>
>> These are good points Lucas.
>>
>
>
>> Atleast from my reading of relays/caches in charter was that, its where
>> the QUIC connection terminates (but not the MOQ) , akin to CDN , for
>> example.
>>
>
>
>> PeerA    <-----QUIC----->  Relay <----QUIC---->  PeerB
>> <---------------------------------- MOQ -------------------------->
>>
> Relays in the above contexts are special MOQ entities that perform
> specific actions to enable MOQ protocol like
>     - caching, forwarding/distributing, fragmentation where necessary,
> reacting to congestion,
>  These actions doesn't need access to raw media that is exchanged between
> PeerA and PeerB for instance.
>
> Cheers
>> Suhas
>>
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Lucas
>>>
>> --
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