Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recommended IETF YANG Model Structure
Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> Fri, 29 July 2016 14:15 UTC
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
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References: <D3A935F0.6A4DC%acee@cisco.com> <eb15fd23-2c0a-50c4-1ebc-7c0e4867dfd8@cisco.com> <20160721174033.GB54646@elstar.local> <d18f5dd0-64d0-e223-88a9-faa4df4b7866@cisco.com> <DCB3EBBF-5EB1-4C8E-AA55-F59C4B5A8E4D@juniper.net> <bed9398c-0e6a-450e-d2ac-b381b6bebf87@cisco.com> <5296754B-8178-4B1B-B4A6-FE228ABB8E7F@juniper.net> <9367f4b1-7814-e175-32e8-d518438b841d@cisco.com> <m24m79c1ja.fsf@birdie.labs.nic.cz> <D3BF8708.72620%acee@cisco.com> <552008CB-F216-4578-A709-AE0613C2EFB9@nic.cz> <12ed1a4d-44c5-9a51-b6d4-95e1620a24ee@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recommended IETF YANG Model Structure
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Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes: > On 28/07/2016 15:20, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>> On 28 Jul 2016, at 15:57, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Lada, >>> >>> On 7/28/16, 9:52 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka" >>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote: >>> >>>> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes: >>>> >>>>> On 26/07/2016 21:36, Kent Watsen wrote: >>>>>> <Rob Wilton writes> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So my thinking is that if we can't merge "foo-state" into "foo" then >>>>>> instead we should have consistent rules that explicitly state that for >>>>>> all IETF models "foo" and "foo-state" are separate trees with a >>>>>> consistent naming convention and structure. That should hopefully >>>>>> allow tooling to programmatically relate the two separate trees >>>>>> together. It may give a path to allow "foo-state" to be merged into >>>>>> "foo" in future, but once IETF has standardized 600+ models with >>>>>> separate sub-trees, I cannot see that they would get merged back >>>>>> together again. >>>>>> >>>>>> What other alternatives are available? As a WG we need to tell the >>>>>> other WGs how the IETF YANG models should be structured. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, unfortunately I think that we have probably already missed >>>>>> the opportunity to merge "foo" and "foo-state" subtrees together ... >>>>>> >>>>>> </Rob Wilton> >>>>>> >>>>>> Firstly, I’m trying to get a sense of how big a problem this >>>>>> foo/foo-state thing is. [Note: by foo-state, I’m only referring to >>>>>> counters, not opstate]. >>>>>> >>>>> RW: >>>>> By counters, I think that we also mean any config false nodes that >>>>> don't >>>>> directly represent "applied configuration", right? E.g. is an >>>>> interface >>>>> operationally up or down. >>>>> >>>>>> I know about RFC 7223, which was done out of consideration for >>>>>> system-generated interfaces, but how many other such models are there >>>>>> envisioned to be? >>>>>> >>>>> RW: >>>>> - Any models that augment RFC 7223 and have config false nodes will be >>>>> impacted. >>>>> - I thought that quite a lot of other IETF models that are in the >>>>> process of being standardized have a top level split between "foo" and >>>>> "foo-state". E.g the ISIS model (draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg-08) has >>>>> this split. I suspect that all the routing models will be structured >>>>> similarly. >>>> Correct. One reason is that the core routing model envisions >>>> system-controlled RIBs. >>>> >>>>> - Although it is perhaps worth pointing out that I think that the >>>>> OpenConfig modules effectively have exactly this same issue (e.g. they >>>>> have a combined interfaces tree keyed by config true leaves), and they >>>>> pragmatically just ignore the issue of system created interface >>>>> entries. >>>> The NETMOD WG considered this issue quite important in the past. >>>> >>>> My impression from the OpState discussion is that we are on the quest of >>>> the philosopher's stone, trying to find a shortcut where none is >>>> possible in general. The long session in Berlin concentrated on the >>>> life-cycle of a single parameter that's somehow configured, then >>>> manipulated, and eventually ends up as operational state. IMO this >>>> is too simplistic, the relationship between configuration and state can >>>> be much more complex. RIB is one example - it combines contributions >>>> from configuration (static routes) and derived state (routing >>>> protocols). >>> If one were to support the Applied-Config data store, it be comprised of >>> only the current state of the configured static routes. The complete RIB >>> would still need to be accessible in separate data nodes. >> Yes, but I didn't talk about intended-applied. I understand that another goal of OpState is to unify config and (true) state and get rid of the foo and foo-state dichotomy in the data model. I am sceptical about it. > The goal is/was to unify where the only reason that they were split was > because the lifetime of the configured containing datanode may differ > from the operational containing datanode. E.g. interfaces vs > interfaces-state was split to allow for system created interfaces that > were not configured, but other than this reason the split seems quite > artificial and not particularly helpful. > > OpenConfig is modelling interfaces and interfaces-state as a single > list. It would be kind of helpful if IETF models and OpenConfig models > could be consistent in this regard, and I prefer the combined list > approach used by OpenConfig interfaces (on the assumption that we can > solve the technical problems associated with this approach - which I > think that we can). If we agree that there may be state data that have no direct counterpart in configuration, and these will be in foo-state, then the likely outcome is that in order to collect all state data, one will have to query both foo and foo-state, which doesn't seem ideal. Lada > > I've no particular issue with a RIB existing under routing-state. But > personally, if it was the ISIS specific routing table, I would prefer it > to be under a single top level ISIS container on the assumption that you > cannot really have an ISIS routing table if ISIS isn't actually running > on the device. > > Cheers, > Rob > >> >> Lada >> >>> Thanks, >>> Acee >>> >>> >>> >>>> After all, most real devices have some configuration mode and "show" >>>> commands. They are separate even though there is certainly some >>>> relationship between their data. >>>> >>>> Lada >>>> >>>>>> Is this issue currently blocking models from progressing, or are we >>>>>> getting ourselves wrapped around a hypothetical? >>>>>> >>>>> RW: >>>>> I think that it is blocking models from progressing. >>>>> >>>>> The current guidance for "intended vs applied" is clear. I.e. there >>>>> must not be "config false" leaves in the IETF YANG data models to >>>>> represent "applied config". >>>>> >>>>> But there is no clear guidance for the rest of operational state that >>>>> isn't applied config. The other WGs need clear guidance (effectively >>>>> now) to ensure that they can start publishing models as RFCs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> If RFC 7223 is an outlier, then we can address it as a special case >>>>>> (perhaps via the related-state/related-config YANG annotations). What >>>>>> do you think? >>>>>> >>>>> RW: >>>>> Personally, I would like one common convention that applies to all IETF >>>>> YANG models. >>>>> >>>>> Idealistically I would like foo and foo-state to be merged because I >>>>> think that will make the models easier to use and maintain in the long >>>>> term, but I don't know if we are just too late to go in that direction. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that the NETMOD WG really should try to come to a >>>>> decision quite quickly on this, but I don't know how to encourage that. >>>>> >>>>> A virtual interim on just this topic perhaps? >>>>> >>>>>> Next, regarding paths forward (assuming 7223 is not an outlier), I’m >>>>>> thinking the opposite. I’m quite sure that we would never merge the >>>>>> 600+ models with separate subtrees back together again. So I’m >>>>>> thinking we immediately merge foo and foo-state in all active YANG >>>>>> models (so that the YANG “conceptual” models are stable and good) >>>>>> *and* then we use your idea to programmatically generate the >>>>>> “foo-state” tree, presumably only when needed. This foo-state tree >>>>>> could be generated offline by tools and provided as a second YANG >>>>>> module in drafts. In this way, servers (opstate aware or not) can >>>>>> advertise if clients can access the foo-state tree (an opstate-aware >>>>>> server may still advertise it for business reasons, and it can >>>>>> ‘deprecate’ the tree when no longer needed). We could do the same >>>>>> without tools today by just using a feature statement on, for >>>>>> instance, the interfaces-state container, but I like pushing for >>>>>> tooling upfront so that we’re guaranteed mergeability later. Thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>> RW: >>>>> So the generated "foo-state" tree would contain a copy of all config >>>>> false nodes in the YANG schema and a "config false copy" of any config >>>>> true nodes in the YANG schema that are required to provide parental >>>>> structure for the descendant config false nodes. >>>>> - The Xpath expressions would also need to be adjusted, and possibly >>>>> some of those might break (or need to be fixed by hand). >>>>> - Groupings might be a problem, but potentially they could be expanded. >>>>> >>>>> Technically this solution might work, but is it possible to get >>>>> everyone >>>>> to agree that this is the right direction to go in before we spend time >>>>> on this? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Kent // as a contributor >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>> -- >>>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs >>>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> netmod mailing list >>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> -- >> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs >> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C >> >> >> >> >> . >> > -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
- [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recommended… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Rob Shakir
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Alex Campbell
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Balazs Lengyel
- [netmod] OpsState and Schema-Mount Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- [netmod] Corollary to [OpsState Direction Impact … Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Mahesh Jethanandani
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Xufeng Liu
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… thomas nadeau
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Alex Campbell
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Rob Shakir
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] OpsState Direction Impact on Recomme… Andy Bierman