Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry-pppoe-credit
Karl Fox <karlfox@columbus.rr.com> Fri, 09 December 2005 13:25 UTC
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From: Karl Fox <karlfox@columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry-pppoe-credit
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:24:34 -0500
To: William Allen Simpson <wsimpson@greendragon.com>
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Welcome back, Bill! It's nice to have one of the voices of reason and wisdom back in our group. This group, and the IETF in general, tend to be divided into two camps: those who remember the IETF's original purpose and strongly advocate clean designs and proven interoperability, and those who strongly advocate a conclusion decided in advance by a vendor or a group of vendors. We are supposed to be protocol designers to the world, not a rubber stamp for companies who want an official-looking Band-Aid (tm) to fix their badly designed product. That's why PPPoE is not standards track, and that's why the latest "patch" (to undo a foolish choice made by the original gang of companies) is also not standards track. Let me cite an example from the dim, dark past: In 1997, Bill sent a message to this list describing a certain company that had sold inexpensive routers with a bug in the FCS calculation on PPP links. They originally wanted everyone to recognize them as a special case (sound familiar?), seeing as how they had already fielded a large number of units. But Bill and the group held firm, and they fixed their broken units. Broken. Yes, I said broken. PPPoE is broken. A PPP-over-Ethernet- over-radio design that needs new options to work properly is, by definition, also broken. Broken because the designers designed their product improperly. And now they want us to accept their broken design as OK by standardizing it. Design your products properly and you won't need all these broken options. Listen to experienced (and smart!) people like Bill Simpson, Vern Schryver and Jim Carlson and your products will work better without all the cruft. Karl P.S. My copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" lies on a shelf at home, gathering dust, never cracked. Sorry about that! On Dec 9, 2005, at 5:55 AM, William Allen Simpson wrote: > Stan Ratliff (sratliff) wrote: >>> The techniques described in this document are intended for use with >>> a particular deployment technique that uses a PPP termination >>> separated from a radio termination by an Ethernet, and that has >>> radio-side flow control for a slower PPP-only link to remote nodes. >> I, for one, would be OK with this text. > While I, for one, would not! Merely describing the protocol deployment > environment is a part of the specification, not a WG warning about the > poor design. > > Going back 20+ years, I have had considerable experience deploying > protocols over radio links. The best design would be to put a router > at every radio link. Goodness gracious, TAL did it commercially going > on 15 years ago! Simple 2 port routers are cheap! > > Also, we have seen a long history here of problems with inter-layer > interactions -- multimedia bridges, L2TP, PPPoE, etc, etc. > > Something close to the original warning is required: > > The PPP Extensions Working Group (pppext) has reservations about > the desirability of the feature described in this document. In > particular, it solves a general problem at an inappropriate layer > and it may have unpredictable interactions with higher and lower > level protocols. The consensus of the working group is that > implementors would be better advised either to seek ways of making > the underlying radio link suitable for general Ethernet-like use, or > to abandon the incomplete emulation of Ethernet entirely. _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext
- [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry-ppp… James Carlson
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Vernon Schryver
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… William Allen Simpson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Karl Fox
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Karl Fox
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Vernon Schryver
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Karl Fox
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Bo Berry
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Vernon Schryver
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Karl Fox
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Mark Lanzo
- RE: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Nelson, David
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… Vernon Schryver
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… James Carlson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… William Allen Simpson
- Re: [Pppext] warning suggestions for draft-bberry… William Allen Simpson