Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com> Wed, 11 November 2020 17:46 UTC
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org>, "roll-chairs@ietf.org" <roll-chairs@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Thread-Topic: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hello Benjamin > I will say a bit more inline, but want to note upfront that my primary unease > here is that we seem to be assigning some (partial) semantics to MOP value 7 > here (even though we do not specify full semantics for MOP value 7): > > For a MOP value of 7, [RFC8138] MUST be > used on Links where 6LoWPAN Header Compression [RFC6282] applies and > MUST NOT be used otherwise. True; we considered the position of an implementer testing for MOP < 7 to decide if the flag was meaningful. That implementer would have to populate the else statement and we preferred to give him instructions rather than have different implementations do different things. > > yet there is no "trail of breadcrumbs" for someone to follow from "I want to > implement MOP 7" and end up at the sentence I quoted above. A formal > Update to 6550 would provide such a trail, as would being listed as a > reference in the IANA registry for MOP value 7. My current understanding is There was this traceability statement in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-15#section-3 which is gone now. I followed Alvaro's lead there; we removed it based on an interpretation of the "updates" that denotes a change in RFC 6550 implementations, which is not the case here. Using a reserved flag is not an "update" per this interpretation. But yes, I see your point. > that the only thing we have right now is "repeat this requirement in whatever > document ends up providing a full specification for MOP value 7", and I don't > think that relying on the IETF's collective memory is a great way to enforce > such a requirement -- we can and have in the past slipped up and published > RFCs that are inconsistent with requirements imposed by previous ones. True. We have created a file to store this kind of memory. I added your quote there, please see: https://github.com/roll-wg/RPLv2/blob/main/README.md I've been thinking about it so more but cannot find a better answer... Many thanks! Pascal > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 08:15:33AM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Benjamin: > > > > > That said, and my apologies for a hazy memory coming back to this > > > after a couple months, in a year or N from now when mopex is > > > finalized, how will someone looking at mopex know to use RFC8138 on > > > links where 6LoWPAN Header Compression applies (and not use it > > > otherwise)? We are claiming in the -14 of this document that: > > > > > > For a MOP value of 7, [RFC8138] MUST be > > > used on Links where 6LoWPAN Header Compression [RFC6282] applies > and > > > MUST NOT be used otherwise. > > > > > > but I am not sure (or have forgotten) what the chain of references > > > is supposed to lead someone who is implementing RPL plus MOP=7 to > > > the requirement to use RFC 8138. I don't think we should just rely > > > on the mopex text to do so, since we are trying to impose the > > > requirement with this document (which predates mopex by some time), > > > and there's not anything (other than our collective memories, of > > > course) requiring mopex to remain consistent with that requirement. > > > > Just to be clear for the other readers: MOPext does not exist as a normative > reference for this work. > > The only field that exists is the MOP field in the DIO and that field is 3 bits > long, values 0..7. > > Yes. > > > The normative reference that you are after is > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-useofrplinfo/ > > This is the spec that updates RPL and changes the IANA registry to indicate > that 7 is not a MOP. > > Not a MOP at all, or not a "normal" MOP that behaves like 0..6? > > > There we have: > > > > " > > > > ... > > > > Anticipating future work to revise RPL relating to how the LLN and > > DODAG is configured, this document changes the interpretation of the > > [dodagcfg] Registry to be limited to Mode-of-Operation (MOP) > > specific. The MOP is described in [RFC6550] section 6.3.1. The > > Options Flags Registry is renamed, and applies to MOP values zero (0) > > to six (6) only, leaving the flags reserved for MOP value seven (7). > > > > In addition, this document reserves MOP value 7 for future expansion. > > > > ... > > > > 11.3. Change MOP value 7 to Reserved > > > > This document changes the allocation status of the Mode of Operation > > (MOP) [ianamop] from Unassigned to Reserved. This change is in > > support of future work related to capabilities. > > " > > > > So basically we tell the implementations from now on to test if MOP is 7, > and in that case, the Options Flags are undefined. In other words, if MOP is 7, > the stack must not use the option flags as if the MOP was <7. In fact, 7 is no > more a MOP value but a reserved thingy that can be overloaded in the future. > And yes, we intend to do just that in MOPExt. > > > > Until that happens, implementations are at a loss if they encounter when a > MOP field that is all ones. So we need to give them instructions to cope with > the situation. This draft derives whether to use RFC 8138 from whether the > 6LoWPAN compression applies to the link or not. > > Yes, we are saying "if you see a MOP field that is all ones, do this". To me, > that seems like we want to be listed as an additional reference for MOP value > 7 in the IANA registry. > > > This will stay true forever, unless another RFC amends it. When/if that > happens, the new RFC will have to consider backward compatibility with a > legacy implementation that implements the above. > > It will stay true forever (until amended), but how does a new person making > an implementation know to find this document and do so? [useofrplinfo] says > that MOP value 7 is special and needs dedicated handling, but it doesn't say > anything about using 8138 [on links where 6LoWPAN Header Compression > applies]. I'm missing the trail of breadcrumbs. > > Thanks, > > Ben > > > Note that this line of thought applies to 3 flags, defined respectively in: > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-useofrplinfo/ > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138/ > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves/ > > > > Keep safe! > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Ben > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 04:25:10PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > > > Hello Alvaro > > > > > > > > I uploaded both draft with the suggested update, please see > > > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138-17. > > > > txt > > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves-2 > > > > 1.tx > > > > t > > > > > > > > Keep safe > > > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> > > > > > Sent: jeudi 24 septembre 2020 17:49 > > > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > > > > > Cc: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; > > > > > draft-ietf- roll-turnon-rfc8138@ietf.org; Martin Duke > > > > > <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>; Routing Over Low power and Lossy > > > > > networks <roll@ietf.org>; roll- chairs@ietf.org; Michael > > > > > Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > > > > draft-ietf-roll-turnon-rfc8138- > > > > > 14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > > > > > On September 24, 2020 at 8:13:09 AM, Pascal Thubert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pascal: > > > > > > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > > > > > > Following the meeting last Monday and subsequent the update of > > > > > > useofrplinfo by Michael (thanks Michael!) I published a new > > > > > > version of the turnon RFC > > > > > > 8138 draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > The major changes are > > > > > > - removed the formal update to RFC 6550 > > > > > > - refer to useofrplinfo as the justification why the flag is > > > > > > not defined for MOP 7 > > > > > > - defined the operation in MOP 7 as compression on iff the > > > > > > Link uses 6LoPWAN HC. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for these changes. > > > > > > > > > > Because we have to cycle useofrplinfo back through (when the WG > > > > > is done with it), I asked Ben/Martin to wait for that before > > > > > coming back to this document. It'll make it easier than > > > > > tracking multiple changes. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OTOH, I do have comments on the recent change: > > > > > > > > > > OLD> > > > > > Section 4.3 of [USEofRPLinfo] updates [RFC6550] to indicate > > > > > that the > > > > > definition of the Flags applies to Mode of Operation (MOP) > > > > > values > > > > > zero (0) to six (6) only, leaving the flags reserved for MOP > > > > > value > > > > > seven (7). For a MOP value of 7, the bit in position 2 is > > > > > considered > > > > > unallocated and [RFC8138] MUST be used on Links where 6LoWPAN > > > > > Header > > > > > Compression [RFC6282] applies and MUST NOT be used otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > NEW> > > > > > > > > > > Section 4.3 of [USEofRPLinfo] updates [RFC6550] to indicate > > > > > that the > > > > > definition of the Flags applies to Mode of Operation (MOP) > > > > > values zero (0) > > > > > to six (6) only. For a MOP value of 7, [RFC8138] MUST be > > > > > used on Links > > > > > where 6LoWPAN Header Compression [RFC6282] applies and MUST > > > > > NOT be used > > > > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Alvaro.
- [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-rol… Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- [Roll] Agenda for Monday (Re: MOP==7 live discuss… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Agenda for Monday (Re: MOP==7 live dis… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Agenda for Monday (Re: MOP==7 live dis… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Roll] Agenda for Monday (Re: MOP==7 live dis… Ines Robles
- Re: [Roll] Agenda for Monday (Re: MOP==7 live dis… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Roll] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf… Martin Duke