Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask and how to ask them)
Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> Thu, 06 November 2014 21:55 UTC
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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D4E50D8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <E78E8017-A08F-4061-B2BA-FB3900B1C681@phonefromhere.com> <CAGTXFp-9AtQakpLt+O_eNRNr71uyh26igLb-_56LDUTQ+g5iJg@mail.gmail.com> <545A6281.4050601@gmail.com> <EC89515C-4FD9-4C08-A80A-42B36004A516@phonefromhere.com> <545A7E0B.4070505@gmail.com> <C17546AB-1419-49C2-A634-49296C122347@phonefromhere.com> <CABcZeBOWyy3hagGpjMzmbPJjCaBdUjUUs5zat-t7h75Xa+Fzkg@mail.gmail.com> <20141106182937.GH8092@hex.shelbyville.oz> <D0812C0A.3DDD9%mzanaty@cisco.com> <20141106210038.GI8092@hex.shelbyville.oz>
From: Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 22:55:30 +0100
Message-ID: <CALiegfkd0vkVCsWXY_443vBoFCrXB0J98DspzkTOkHJB2+1OUg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ron <ron@debian.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask and how to ask them)
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+1 I just hope that those promoting H264 have something to say about this instead of ignoring this great and realistic rationale. 2014-11-06 22:00 GMT+01:00 Ron <ron@debian.org>: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 07:11:21PM +0000, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote: >> We are also working with Red Hat on a potential Gstreamer plugin. >> We would be happy to work with Debian or anyone else on other wrappers >> for projects that want to download some wrapper format beyond the raw >> library. >> >> It would be ideal to have a single binary (per platform) that works for >> all applications, without many different wrappers. That was the goal of >> the raw library, but apparently this is not sufficient for most projects. >> Until we reach an acceptable common wrapper (with verifiable builds), >> we¹re happy to have folks contribute their desired wrapper for hosting. >> Mozilla contributed the Firefox Gecko Media Plugin (GMP) wrapper. They >> were first to contribute, so they were hosted first, not due to any >> special privilege. > > For Debian, this gets complicated really quickly on lots of fronts, > not the least being the basic principle of not entering into licence > agreements that don't apply equally to everybody. If someone with a > copy of Debian doesn't have the same rights to use/distribute/modify > it as Debian itself does, then it doesn't meet even the most basic > test of "is it Free/Open". > > While the IETF does give working groups some freedom to make exceptions > where exceptional circumstances might justify it, I do think that the > aspirational requirements for freedom to implement proposed standards > are fairly closely aligned to what Debian requires more strictly. > > > I agree that reproducible builds would go some way toward making a > "single binary" more viable - but that also is a Hard Problem, and > while people are working on it, I don't see it being universally > solved before H.264 has gone the same way as H.261 has. It does > also still leave the problem of people needing custom and/or urgent > fixes, whether for security reasons or simply because of some show > stopper bug that might be specific to some narrow use case. > > What happens when fixing that bug for your app causes somebody else's > app to break because of some other assumption they made in their code? > Who gets to decide whose app gets to stay broken? > > > I definitely appreciate the good will that Cisco has put into trying > to find viable answers for other groups that would allow its preferred > choice to actually be a viable one, but at the end of the day it is a > hack around the H.264 licencing, and I don't think we're really even > close to having charted the full extent of the thin ice that it is > currently floating on. The cap announced for H.265 definitely appears > to have responded to this challenge already ... > > So the question for me at this stage still really is: > > What exceptional circumstances exist to justify this group deciding > to go out on such a thin and completely untested limb, to mandate a > technology that is so obviously, and undisputedly, encumbered? > > Especially when we have an alternative choice available to us which is > its technical equal, and for which the equivalent encumberance is, at > best, still the untested assertion of a few far-from-unbiased parties. > > > I'm not ruling out that there may be *some* solution which makes H.264 > viable without needing to resort to Clever Hacks, but so far we seem > to be still well short of that. At the same time, VP8 is currently > under consideration to become an international standard. And there are > other codecs under development which may change the facts on the ground > too before the work of this group is completed. > > I do think we want an MTI video codec, but it's less clear we need to > rush this decision while things that may be quite pertinent to it are > still evolving in new and potentially game changing ways. > > >> On 11/6/14, 1:29 PM, Ron <ron@debian.org> wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 09:14:27PM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM, tim panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > Agreed, the worst aspect of any adoption of H264 is that it makes it >> > > significantly more difficult to >> > > produce a custom ¹secure¹ build of firefox that has been independently >> > > reviewed for special use-cases >> > > (press, humanitarian workers etc). >> > >> > Why is this true? We currently build OpenH264 and then send the binary to >> > Cisco but keep a hash for comparison. Why is it more difficult to review >> > this? >> >> Is Cisco offering to ship such binaries for anyone who wants to build >> them, or is this a special privilege they offered to you to win your >> support for their scheme? >> >> Ron > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net>
- [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask and… Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Mary Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Rob Pickering
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Ron
- [rtcweb] Warning gstreamer commercial (was Re: Th… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Bo Burman
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] The MTI Codec Questions (what to ask… Sean Turner