Re: [Terminology] Update to TERM charter text

Niels,

I don't understand your concern. The IETF process doesn't treat charters
the same as drafts. It's the IESG's job to approve charters, because until
there is a charter, there is no WG and no WG Chair. And it's the whole
IETF's input that counts, not just the people who happened to propose the
charter.

Regards
  Brian

On Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 22:39 Niels ten Oever, <lists@digitaldissidents.org>
wrote:

>
> On 13-04-2021 12:22, Bron Gondwana wrote:
> > Unfortunately, this "problem" is not restricted to GENDISPATCH.  I
> haven't even been in the IETF that long but I've seen multiple documents -
> drafts, charters, etc, be exposed to larger review and have the carefully
> crafted work of a working group be re-considered when it's exposed to a
> wider review.
> >
> > Indeed, this is precisely the function of an IETF last-call - otherwise
> why do we bother sending work to the IESG for review?  We could just
> deliver every piece of careful "working group last call"ed document
> directly to the RFC editor with no cross-sectional review.
> >
> > Of course, the flip side is that as a participant in the process, you
> can ask for the work to be brought back to GENDISPATCH to see whether
> there's consensus for the new document or not.  Or you could just object to
> charter in its current form I guess, I'm not sure how that works at IETF
> last-call stage.  One thing is for sure, the IETF processes aren't good at
> enforcing that the IETF goes ahead with the exact consensus product of a
> single working group, unchanged by wider review.
>
> In my experience, IESG review brings up comments that are for the authors
> to fix, instead of IESG fixing them for you.
>
> Best,
>
> Niels
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bron.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 13, 2021, at 19:41, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> >> Dear IESG,
> >>
> >> I am dismayed by the discussion in the IESG on the charter and the
> revisions that are proposed. The charter that was proposed was the product
> of long and complex discussions in GENDISPATCH. The review in the IESG is
> now rehashing those debates but changing the outcome. The changes in the
> charter are thus subvert the consensus that was carefully built. The
> proposed changes therefore undermine and jeopardize the work that the
> proposed WG could produce.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Niels
> >>
> >>
> >> On 13-04-2021 08:46, Lars Eggert wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > there is now an -05 version that rolls in some additional feedback
> received yesterday:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/00-05/ <
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/00-05/>
> >> >
> >> > Diff at
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
> <
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
> >
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Lars
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Niels ten Oever, PhD
> >> Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
> Amsterdam
> >> Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
> University Viadrina
> >> Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação
> Getúlio Vargas
> >>
> >> https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net> -
> mail@nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail%40nielstenoever.net> - @nielstenoever
> - +31629051853
> >> PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
> >>
> >> Read my latest article on Internet infrastructure governance in New
> Media & Society here:
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320 <
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology <
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology>
> >>
> >
> > --
> >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
> >   brong@fastmailteam.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Niels ten Oever, PhD
> Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
> Amsterdam
> Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
> University Viadrina
> Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio
> Vargas
>
> https://nielstenoever.net - mail@nielstenoever.net - @nielstenoever -
> +31629051853
> PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
>
> Read my latest article on Internet infrastructure governance in New Media
> & Society here:
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320
>
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