Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie-00.txt
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> Mon, 09 July 2018 22:56 UTC
Return-Path: <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0500127333 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SfyphFzx8on5 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:56:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi0-x243.google.com (mail-oi0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF7F7127332 for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oi0-x243.google.com with SMTP id k12-v6so39015792oiw.8 for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 15:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=82Mt6naNQdtOHJO1NtSM4ixlYBIioCta17Qhy2BxcSw=; b=HLPKKHx4EWzH+UArXstmU+7dSHRKqCa8vqCG40EHdMKHZa8uZgKmKfQFS9AMSCEe5g cegiBUz3Bha4oPmkkREySe2XkpFkIt4gMwmY+Mltq6GmkH1qT0gXSK/j2rc7DxrR7bgT P6dm8PoIciy7sKbZhoF8Pd5yhDOVQ5V3u8szSL4ObJiTpZ3HhiVyJBKgQTHU0RRwPCDQ cvwUtfskifXlUGd1B/QTLf3SAqZUPdAKlgGydQHlghpWOESxzrAJb8Mdev5iVIhFTNpo urfSWIhRip6ouP8kp/51zEjBf11gVOIQfeXz/ciuD7q6iGmIZ2FT9Db6vWik2fi3Lr0i f2Kg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=82Mt6naNQdtOHJO1NtSM4ixlYBIioCta17Qhy2BxcSw=; b=YWPGBT8kSHFefBYo6saK/P+41pwGI8V6vUm+sTjU9sUIRimy+W33k9D+QWpGyNtzQu TnUrpWN1FGzKCbYyqPFyzAX5T6tzNIQRlg/8YvFxyjw+VHDb/zB4Wqy+Uj34FqN+vc2R ca96JG0iS+FaT88htUXyhHRU4uaHxfQl4K50BsLtF8NwgummQuOT17DvUNrLwsRz8pby 8usvygInppykPEXrfy3Kbnj9cHnYiA5woynZq+tM/rW+nioLw8aWV666z9KFuaZ1k3Rc BPcXVO+TdeVJUUk/ZpvABcEWVtAJB2JWz9MIW3OoCNdEolFoNZvM0LUlykUboZMhSKUu Omnw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEOXjWMH9VYewi4D3tZxBn8avoY60y2JBJD98fMp5xNYW65Zxw6 RWKFQ/mwVF744eQGwBipliFSB1EE39o5OEre+KQ=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeRcgBuJ/W5GLLjq46P+69vRKaS2ENRUKKUEBfDZcOqogVQ2GyT+MhHQICAPdZRxAruv0Qc5rU7M1rc3Cwc6jE=
X-Received: by 2002:aca:df42:: with SMTP id w63-v6mr6811727oig.295.1531176986073; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 15:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <152934875755.3094.4484881874912460528.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAHbuEH5J-F2cKag02Vx416jsy1N6XZOju28H99WAt71Pc5optg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAHbuEH5J-F2cKag02Vx416jsy1N6XZOju28H99WAt71Pc5optg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:56:14 +1000
Message-ID: <CABkgnnUhC5O-XuPnxzgt-_T4pzw0MiwP3GYXYp45xFso8R2osA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "<tls@ietf.org>" <tls@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/501T8RHY7dtfmvWVbvEwiHTfTUE>
Subject: Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie-00.txt
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 22:56:30 -0000
I want to see these disappear, but I am guessing that there is still some time before many products can make the move. For websites, like the ones mentioned in the draft, that time is already here. As a site operator, you do not want to talk to a browser that doesn't talk TLS 1.2. Is there any reason why we wouldn't also consider deprecating cipher suites we don't like? For instance, RFC 5246 mandates the implementation of TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA, which we can probably agree isn't ideal for several reasons. The ECDHE suites with AES-GCM are widely available, perhaps widely enough that we might consider a stronger move and update 5246 to modern suites. Our numbers for AES-CBC are not anywhere near as low as TLS <1.2, but they are definitely trending in the right direction. 3DES still exists too, which is a little sad, but there you are. On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 2:42 AM Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello, > > Stephen and I posted the draft below to see if the TLS working group > is ready to take steps to deprecate TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1. There has > been a recent drop off in usage for web applications due to the PCI > Council recommendation to move off TLSv1.0, with a recommendation to > go to TLSv1.2 by June 30th. NIST has also been recommending TLSv1.2 > as a baseline. Applications other than those using HTTP may not have > had the same reduction in usage. If you are responsible for services > where you have a reasonable vantage point to gather and share > statistics to assess usage further, that could be helpful for the > discussion. We've received some feedback that has been incorporated > into the working draft and feelers in general have been positive. It > would be good to know if there are any show stoppers that have not > been considered. > > https://github.com/sftcd/tls-oldversions-diediedie > > Thanks in advance, > Kathleen > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org> > Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:05 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie-00.txt > To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Kathleen Moriarty > <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Stephen Farrell and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie > Revision: 00 > Title: Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1 > Document date: 2018-06-18 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 10 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-moriarty-tls-oldversions-diediedie > > > Abstract: > This document [if approved] formally deprecates Transport Layer > Security (TLS) versions 1.0 [RFC2246] and 1.1 [RFC4346] and moves > these documents to the historic state. These versions lack support > for current and recommended cipher suites, and various government and > industry profiiles of applications using TLS now mandate avoiding > these old TLS versions. TLSv1.2 has been the recommended version for > IETF protocols since 2008, providing sufficient time to transition > away from older versions. Products having to support older versions > increase the attack surface unnecessarily and increase opportunities > for misconfigurations. Supporting these older versions also requires > additional effort for library and product maintenance. > > This document updates the backward compatibility sections of TLS RFCs > [[list TBD]] to prohibit fallback to TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1. This > document also updates RFC 7525. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Hubert Kario
- [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Version… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… nalini elkins
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mor… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Alessandro Ghedini
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Phil Pennock
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [CAUTION] Re: Fwd: New Version Notifica… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… nalini elkins
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] raising ceiling vs. floor (was: New Ver… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [CAUTION] Re: Fwd: New Version Notifica… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… nalini elkins
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Artyom Gavrichenkov