Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibility-00
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 24 October 2017 19:49 UTC
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To: Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>, "David A. Cooper" <david.cooper@nist.gov>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:49:21 +0100
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibility-00
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Ralph, On 24/10/17 20:36, Yoav Nir wrote: > > >> On 24 Oct 2017, at 22:27, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 24, 2017, at 3:23 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote: >>> >>> I use an airplane as an example of a “captive” population, substitute any similar group you want. >>> >>> • Yes, any box that sits between the client and the server can drop traffic for whatever reason it wants. Such a box could today drop any traffic that is protected using TLS. >>> >>> True, but that’s not the point. The point is by adding this extension into the clientHello, we are providing middleboxes with another knob to control traffic. I think we want to avoid that. And keep in mind it’s not just HTTP, but *any* TLS-using traffic, such as many VPN’s. It wouldn’t necessarily enable spying, but it could be used to guarantee that all traffic is amenable to spying. >>> >>> As for how would such clients get promulgated? Some simple scenarious include “surf for free on your flight, but use our Chromium-based browser to do so, available for free here.” How many people on the plane would click and download? >> >> Just to make sure I understand, in this scenario the special-purpose browser could just as easily, today, be a browser with no TLS at all? That is, I don't see why this scenario is specific to the visibility extension. > > Think of the children. > > We can’t just let them loose on the Internet, there’s predators out there. So we will snoop on their traffic. To do that, we block all traffic that isn’t snoopable, and we do it at the edge router in schools. All schools in our state are required by law to install a firewall that does this. And we get the mobile operators to do so as well (only for handsets in schools). > > Now either the mobile OS vendors make a browser that works in schools (at least with a setting), or the school recommends a third party browser that works in school. And best of all, this is *more secure* than regular TLS 1.3, because it also protects your children from Internet predators. Think of the children. > > You can’t make a claim like that for an HTTP-only browser, and worse still, it won’t work on much of today’s Internet. Just to note that the only substantive difference between draft-green and this is the please-screw-me extension in the ClientHello and Yoav's argument above (with or without all the obvious corollaries/variations) destroys that as a defence for your latest effort to square this circle. (This has been stated at least a couple of times/ways already.) If you Ralph or Russ have some new arguments for your draft that have not been countered already or wrt draft-green then I wish you would raise those, because I've not seen any that have survived. And if you have no such arguments then I think it'd be a fine thing to admit that truth openly. The underlying idea remains as bad as ever, for all the reasons I tried to summarise at [1] (to which I'll add Yoav's description above when I get a chance as it's a nice illustration). S. [1] https://github.com/sftcd/tinfoil > > Yoav > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >
- [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibil… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Darin Pettis
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Steve Fenter
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Steve Fenter
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Adam Caudill
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Joseph Salowey
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Bowen
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk