Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibility-00
Benjamin Kaduk <bkaduk@akamai.com> Mon, 23 October 2017 22:30 UTC
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To: "Ackermann, Michael" <MAckermann@bcbsm.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Darin Pettis <dpp.edco@gmail.com>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
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From: Benjamin Kaduk <bkaduk@akamai.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:30:37 -0500
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/j5ItNFn7HebpddF-9S4dBOMvWYU>
Subject: Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibility-00
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On 10/23/2017 01:42 PM, Ackermann, Michael wrote: > But as stated in several previous Emails, the fact that TLS 1.2 is still available, does not mean that we won't have applications, business units or other entities that require TLS 1.3 and we will need to manage, monitor and secure these, as well as older versions. This seems sufficiently hypothetical so as to be non-actionable. That is, I assume that any sufficiently large enterprise must have some sort of architecture review process before a new system is deployed (and if one does not, it seems highly unlikely to be secure). There would need to be some resolution of the conflict between those parties "requiring" monitorability and those parties "requiring" TLS 1.3 before such a system could get approved and approach deployment, so I feel obligated to insert "require" into scare quotes and attribute no real meaning to the statement. As was stated previously, this is a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. While it is reasonable to investigate changing both of the rock and the hard place, it seems unwise to presume that it is one or the other specifically that must change. You assert in a different message that it would be very expensive and time consuming to change "virtually every platform and application, not to mention all the management, monitoring, and security platforms" (e.g., the "hard place"), and I do not disagree. It would also be expensive and time consuming to modify the TLS 1.3 protocol (e.g., "the rock") in the way(s) being proposed; unfortunately, the error bars on this cost estimate are necessarily quite large so as to take into account the risk of catastrophic breakdown of the security of the Internet. It seems pretty clear that various parties involved in this conversation are applying different metric functions to weight these various costs, which makes it hard to see a path that would appease everyone. In that same "different message" you also mention that you have come to expect backwards compatibility, but can you really expect backwards compatibility without limit? Does Windows 10 run MS-DOS executables? Can a Kerberos principal who last set their password using Kerberos 4 expect to interoperate in a modern Kerberos 5 deployment? Can you still log into a shell server via telnet? There are many arguments in support of backwards compatibility, but they are not universal, and history provides plenty of precedent for security eventually overriding backwards compatibility. So where would you put the boundary on the backwards compatibility for static RSA in TLS or equivalent non-forward-secrecy mechanisms? Would you propose infinite compatibility in this space with no bound? Ten years from now? When a quantum computer can quickly factor 2048-bit RSA keys? There are no doubt folks here would claim that the writing has been on the wall for five years or more that static RSA was out and forward secrecy was on the way in, and that now is the right time to draw the line and drop the backwards compatibility. In fact, there is already presumed WG consensus for that position, so a strong argument indeed would be needed to shift the boundary from now. I won't say that no such argument can exist, but I don't think we've seen it yet. -Ben
- [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibil… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Darin Pettis
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Steve Fenter
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Steve Fenter
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Adam Caudill
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ion Larranaga Azcue
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Joseph Salowey
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ralph Droms
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… David A. Cooper
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Peter Bowen
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Publication of draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-vis… Benjamin Kaduk