Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication in browsers
Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Mon, 25 July 2011 13:05 UTC
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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:05:52 +0200
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To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication in browsers
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On 25 Jul 2011, at 14:58, Anders Rundgren wrote: > On 2011-07-25 14:31, Henry Story wrote: >> Hi Anders, I kind of lurk here, but I don't think that client side >> CAs are impossible to get right in the browsers. They are pretty close >> to doing things right. Logout from the browsers would not be that difficult >> to do. I kept thinking that the W3C project http://webid.info/ could stimulate >> the improvement of these pieces. >> >> But I would be interested in feedback from this list on the subject. > > Hi Henry, > > If there had been a *single* mainstream service of US origin who used > HTTPS CCA this would be fixed in record time. What about the army? They are pretty big in the US, representing a huge portion of the budget I believe. > > The tenths of millions of users of "homegrown" PKI authentication schemes > in the EU and Asia apparently don't think HTTPS CCA is particularly useful, > neither do I. I believe that is only because of the naming problem. Distinguished Names of companies don't scale to the world. > TLS' session context is incompatible with web sessions. Why? A TLS Session can work very well with web sessions. You can just make your TLS session be a web session. > > For our mutual interest, PKI for consumers, it doesn't really matter what > the end-solution will be, but an educated guess is that will not build > on HTTPS CCA, but on HTTPS with + an application. This is BTW pretty > much what has happened with HTTP auth versus form-based auth. yes, but there is no argument for why this is the case. And you don't even consider http://webid.info/ > > Fortunately this can be introduced without redeploying PKI so it is a > true "migration solution". IT's odd that people want to move away from something that is close to working. I wonder why... What is the agenda? Henry > > Anders > >> >> Henry >> >> On 25 Jul 2011, at 14:06, Anders Rundgren wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, >>> I don't really know who "owns" this question but presumably you do... >>> >>> HTTPS client-certificate-authentication in browsers >>> =================================================== >>> I don't believe that TLS CCA (Client Certificate Authentication) in the >>> form of HTTPS as implemented in current browsers has much of a future. >>> >>> In fact, quite a bunch of the entities in the EU working with consumer PKI >>> have replaced HTTPS CCA with an application level scheme which wasn't such >>> a big deal since they anyway were forced writing a browser PKI client more >>> or less from scratch since the ones shipped with browsers doesn't support >>> PKI as defined by banks and government (like mandatory PIN codes also >>> for on-line enrolled keys). >>> >>> That the TLS CCA protocol doesn't even support "Logout" haven't made >>> it a logical choice for web developers either. Well, there are some >>> workarounds but they are by no means straightforward, supported >>> out-of-the-box by server authentication schemes, and are (of course) >>> entirely undocumented. >>> >>> The button "Clear SSL state" in MSIE is an indication how horribly bad it >>> can go when security experts design systems for "people". >>> >>> There's no way you can hide the fact that TLS CCA is only truly useful >>> securing tunnels between "boxes". >>> >>> Anders >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TLS mailing list >>> TLS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> >> Social Web Architect >> http://bblfish.net/ >> >> > Social Web Architect http://bblfish.net/
- [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication in … Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Paul Wouters
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Matt McCutchen
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Stefan Winter
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Wan-Teh Chang
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… t.petch
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex