Re: [TLS] EU cards
Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren@telia.com> Fri, 29 July 2011 05:07 UTC
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:07:34 +0200
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
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To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] EU cards
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On 2011-07-28 21:42, Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL wrote: > Anders, > > Where is your data on government cards usage coming from? various mailing lists such as: http://www.opensc-project.org/opensc Most of the people hanging out there are in some way working with the EU cards. > > In US a lot (literally millions) of government email and Web access > is secured by what you call "government cards". I guess you refer to PIV and CAC? There is a fundamental difference between the US and the EU and that only in the EU there is something called "citizen-cards" or eID. Citizens are supposed to buy eID for carrying out secure services on the Internet. The cost have been high; results have been marginal for the reasons I listed (and some more...). Obama's NSTIC is something similar (but still very different) that will be slightly interesting following although I don't think their NIST friends really understand the consumer market and the huge technical issues they will have to deal with. IMO, the PC platform is dead as a vehicle for innovation; they might go to phones from the start. I never understood why you need a picture on a token for Internet access :-) Well, "it has always been like that" is probably the [lame] excuse. Regards, Anders > > -- > Regards, > Uri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anders Rundgren [mailto:anders.rundgren@telia.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 03:10 PM > To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> > Cc: S.tefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>; Martin Gaedke <martin.gaedke@informatik.tu-chemnitz.de>; tls@ietf.org <tls@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [TLS] EU cards > > Dropping HTTPS CCA, it will never leave the 0.1% slot anyway so > why would the browser vendor bother about how it works? > > Now to the cards: Since > 1. readers is a non-standard item > 2. all cards need different middleware > 3. cannot be fitted with additional certificates > 4. is generally only trusted by a restricted group > 5. commercial CAs require certified RP SW, contracts > this is simply put entirely uninteresting > > The government cards are status projects. We have issued > x millions cards. That they are only used as physical ID-cards > is something they are slightly less open about... > > Banks in Scandinavia put eID on credit-cards which means that > every merchant get your SSN as well (if they want). > > As I say all the time: Google and Apple will make all EU cards look > like they always was: A pile of s--t. > > Anders > > On 2011-07-28 17:07, Henry Story wrote: >> Hi Peter, >> >> You may want to ask Prof. Martin Gaedke about this. He is working his way through the >> EU area on this and should have some good pointers on where these token cards are >> going around here. >> >> Henry >> >> On 28 Jul 2011, at 16:45, Peter Gutmann wrote: >> >>> Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu> writes: >>> >>>> Banking: These days, TAN lists are going away. >>> >>> Is there any information on what's being done in countries like France, Italy, >>> the Netherlands, Spain, ...? The only place where it's really documented (in >>> quite some detail) is Germany (with surrounding/similar countries like Austria >>> and Switzerland using equivalent approaches), but what are other countries in >>> Europe doing? There's rather little information *from third parties, not the >>> vendors* publicly available on how e-banking is done in France, Spain, ..., >>> the pros and cons, how it deals with new attack types, and so on. >>> >>>> a) cell phone transaction numbers: >>> >>> The problem is that mTANs are vulnerable to smartphone malware, as Zeus has >>> already shown. It's currently a minor threat, but who knows how far the bad >>> guys will take it. On the whole though mTANs are a nice tradeoff, you get to >>> verify the transaction over an independent channel, and the mTAN is a >>> cryptographic hash over the transaction data so if a MITB tries to modify what >>> the browser sends it gets detected. >>> >>> Peter. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TLS mailing list >>> TLS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> >> Social Web Architect >> http://bblfish.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >
- [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication in … Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Paul Wouters
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Matt McCutchen
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Stefan Winter
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Wan-Teh Chang
- Re: [TLS] EU cards Henry Story
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… t.petch
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] HTTPS client-certificate-authentication… Martin Rex