Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Fri, 26 August 2016 17:59 UTC
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:59:44 -0700
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To: "David McGrew (mcgrew)" <mcgrew@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie
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On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:55 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) <mcgrew@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Tony, > > Thanks for bringing this up; an RFC deprecating and/or discouraging 3DES > would be a good thing. The only good reason to use it is backwards > compatibility, and too many applications don’t heed the birthday bound. > > There is another issue to be considered, though. Most of the lightweight > “designed for IoT” block ciphers have a 64 bit block size (and sometimes > even smaller); see for instance Table 1.1 of > https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/404.pdf So perhaps what the Internet needs > here is sound guidance on how to use 64-bit block ciphers. Best practices > here include both mandatory rekeying well below the birthday bound and/or > the use of secure beyond the birthday bound modes of operation such as > Iwata’s CENC. Or use PRF instead of PRP for counter mode. I'm happy to check the arithmetic if we want an RFC for this, but am very overcommitted on editing right now. > > Best, > > David > > From: Cfrg <cfrg-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of Tony Arcieri > <bascule@gmail.com> > Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 10:08 PM > To: "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>, "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org> > Subject: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie > > This attack was published today[*]: > > https://sweet32.info/ > > I bring it up because I think the threat model is similar to the threats > that lead to RC4 "diediedie" > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7465 > > Should there be a 3DES "diediedie"? > > I believe 3DES is MTI for TLS 1.0/1.1(?) but I think it would make sense for > it to be banned from TLS 1.3. > > [*] Lest anyone claim the contrary, I am not surprised by this attack, and > have pushed to have 3DES removed from TLS prior to the publication of this > attack, and can probably find a TLS implementer who can back me up on that. > > -- > Tony Arcieri > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > -- "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau.
- [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie John Mattsson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie david wong
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Karthikeyan Bhargavan
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie John Mattsson
- [TLS] (confusing the issues) Re: [Cfrg] 3DES died… Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] (confusing the issues) Re: [Cfrg] 3DES … Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Jon Callas
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Jon Callas
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Greg Rose
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Brian Sniffen
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Richard Hartmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Philip Levis
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Richard Hartmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose