Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16
Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com> Wed, 17 June 2020 20:51 UTC
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To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
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References: <202006171419.05HEJClG085550@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <d5c08e8f-134b-6ca2-c490-27b574688d16@mti-systems.com> <8CC077A6-D6D6-4ECF-AC66-08CFC93E9665@gmx.de>
From: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:51:53 -0400
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16
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(I'm at least for now ignoring the parts of this not related to this thread on issue #16.) On 6/17/2020 3:25 PM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> (and if more emerge, they can be dispositioned and added if needed). This particular thread is about agreeing on a path forward on the one labelled "issue #16" in the tracker. Suggestions and discussion about that are good and welcome; repeatedly accusing others of bad intentions is not. > [SM] In the spirit of progress, how about team L4S either accepts rfc3168 compatibility to be a hard requirement and we start to discuss what kind of properties the L4S solution needs to achieve (degree of flow imbalance, temporal fidelity of the detection, false negative rates, ...) or team L4S lays out a plan how to assess the position Ingemar (and Bob in the past) seem to take that rfc3168 AQMs are sufficiently rare in the real world to allow ignoring them. I would expect that we then discuss how to measure this** and decide on what thresholds we consider for significance before hand. This is already a requirement. In the L4S I-D draft, there is a requirement: A.1.4 Fall back to Reno-friendly congestion control on classic ECN bottlenecks Description: A scalable congestion control needs to react to ECN marking from a non-L4S, but ECN-capable, bottleneck in a way that will coexist with a TCP Reno congestion control [RFC5681]. Again, the point of this thread is to figure out what the working group needs to do to achieve this. Looking at it as a co-chair, I'm seeing basic agreement that the classic bottleneck detection algorithm will likely never be perfect. I don't think there's agreement (or even very specific suggestions) about how good it needs to be. There might be agreement that in any case, operators should not expect that all flows using ECT(1) will succeed in being nice to classic flows. Along the lines of some of Paul Vixie's comments in earlier threads, protection from unfriendly or lying flows is important, and this should be true even without regard to whether an operator deploys L4S in their network, or if traffic is using ECT(1). David has suggested to focus on operational guidelines that would help to avoid ECT(1) bleaching, and I think many agree that such bleaching would be undesirable. So, it seems at the moment like we should be working on this in parallel to any improvements on classic bottleneck detection, because it will be important in any case.
- [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Black, David
- [tsvwg] FW: path forward on L4S issue #16 Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] FW: path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] FW: path forward on L4S issue #16 Steven Blake
- [tsvwg] Options for improving L4S safety alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
- Re: [tsvwg] Options for improving L4S safety Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] FW: path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Paul Vixie
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Martin Duke
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16 Sebastian Moeller