Re: [v6ops] About Req for Comments - "Transition to IPv6"

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]>]

Hi Chongfeng,

 

I think we basically agree then.

 

I’ve only one question. You said the access network is layer 2, right, this is common in many places, but on top of the layer 2, there is either IPv6 only to the CE. If that’s the case, then my definition is still good (the CE may be running CLAT or whatever so IPv4 is somehow transported on top of IPv6). Right?

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 11/3/20 2:04, "v6ops en nombre de [e-mail]" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:

 

Hi, Jordi,

Thank you for your consideration of my comments. Please find my new notes in-line below.

 

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ

Date: 2020-03-09 16:32

To: v6ops

Subject: Re: [v6ops] About Req for Comments - "Transition to IPv6"

Hi Chongfeng,

 

Thanks for your inputs!

 

Below, in-line …

 

 

 

El 8/3/20 11:31, "v6ops en nombre de [e-mail]" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:

 

Hi, Jordi, 

First , I agree with you that the definition of IPv6-only needs to consider the what part of the network we are referring to, for example, ISP network, IDC, Cloud platform and Service system should have their own specific definition of IPv6-only.  I hope this draft can go on.

Secondly. for ISP network, the definition of IPv6 should be based on whether it can allocates only IPv6 

 

[Jordi] I don’t agree on this point. An ISP may have different parts of its network with or without IPv6/IPv4, even different services, so I don’t think it can be split that way.

 

addresses to most of its customers for service provisioning, if yes, it can be consider as IPv6-only. If it

 

[Jordi] Now, the part you mention as if it is allocating only IPv6 addresses, is also not valid, in my opinion. Because in some of the IPv6-only with IPv4aaS, the ISP allocate private IPv4 addresses.

 

[Chongfeng] If ISP allocates IPv4 private address to  large quatity of its customers, it should not be considered as IPv6-only, this should be the bottom line.

 

allocates IPv4 address to most of its customers, then it is not IPv6-only. My personal opionion is that the definition should not be based on whether to eliminate IPv4 protocol in the network.  At present stage, it is unrealistic to eliminate IPv4 protocol in most networks, for the networks still need to provide access service to some customers who do not support IPv6-only due to their poor-capability CPE or terminals.

 

[Jordi] I agree is unrealistic to disable IPv4 in most of the customer LANs, but not in the access network. Until 90-99% of the home devices of an ISP customers have IPv6 in their LAN devices, an IPv6 with IPv4aaS is needed.

[Chongfeng]  In China, access network adopts  layer-two approach, it is independent to layer-three procotols. It seems to much more difficult  to make transition to IPv6 in wireline broadband network, due to the slow upgradation of home routers.

 

Moreever, some networks still need to use IPv4 for network management . If the definition it too strict, I guess none of the network can meet the standard, including those who have deplyed 464XLAT. In addition, an IPv6-only network should be open and interconnected with OTTs and other ISPs, some closed system, such as VoLTE in mobile network, should not be consider as IPv6-only, even though it only allocates IPv6 addresses to it customer.

 

[Jordi] If IPv4 is used for management in the access network and provides native IPv4 to the CE (for example), then it is not IPv6-only. We could say in that case: This access network is IPv6-only for the customer service, but still IPv4-only or dual-stack for the management.

 

[Jordi] So I still believe that the “nature” of the definition should be based in if IPv4 is used natively in a specific part of a network (then it is IPv6-only) or otherwise is IPv4-only or dual-stack. What do you think?

 [Chongfeng] In general, I agree with this point.

 

 

Best regards

Chongfeng 

 

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ

Date: 2020-03-06 02:12

To: [e-mail]

Subject: Re: [v6ops] About Req for Comments - "Transition to IPv6"

If you read my draft, my opinion is different:

 

  Definition of IPv6-only

 

   Consequently, considering the context described in the section above,

   if we want to be precise and avoid confusing others, we can not use

   the terminology "IPv6-only" in a generic way, and we need to define

   what part of the network we are referring to.

 

   From that perspective, we define the "IPv6-only" status in a given

   part(s) of a network, depending on if there is actual native

   forwarding of IPv4, so IPv4 is not configured neither managed.

 

So IPv4 may be not configured, or not used natively, but there is no way to prevent that "is there" by means of tunneling of translation.

 

*unless* you make sure that any encapsulation or translation is filtered, which is close to impossible.

 

Because we disagree, it seems clear that this document is needed.

 

So if anyone has inputs, I will consider them in a new version during the weekend.

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

El 5/3/20 17:46, "v6ops en nombre de Owen DeLong" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:

 

    

    

    > On Mar 5, 2020, at 6:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]> wrote:

    > 

    > Thank you very much for the pointer.  In it I could spot

    > the following footnote: "[4] IPv6-Only refers to network environments in

    > which use of the IPv4 protocol has been eliminated.”

    

    No.

    

    IPv6-Only refers to network environments which are not using IPv4. That could be a network where IPv4 has been eliminated (rare at this time, though Facebook is a significant example) or it could be a greenfield deployment where IPv4 was never deployed.

    

    > 

    > In my humble opinion,

    > 

    > I think, if I am not wrong, that there are no such networks in which

    > IPv4 protocol has been eliminated.  On one hand, a network is made of

    > computers, and IPv4 stacks are still present in almost all computers.

    > On another hand, there might be some ptp links (not networks, but

    > individual links) that run IPv6 only.

    

    You are wrong… There are examples at various levels of IPv6-only networks. Many mobile carriers are IPv6-only in the US, though they do provide some apparent IPv4 capability to the end user through mechanisms such as 464XLAT and/or NAT64..

    

    Another significant example is Facebook where they are essentially IPv6-only throughout their network and provide minimal IPv4 translation shim at the edge to cope with end users that lack IPv6 capability.

    

    > That is why it is hard to agree on the assumption of IPv4 being eliminated somewhere.  Worse, it makes look as if the goal of that 'IPv6-only' is to arrive at that same situation which in fact does use IPv4.

    

    As a general rule, once IPv6 is ubiquitously deployed in a network, the preservation of IPv4 in the majority of that network becomes an unnecessary cost factor and a security risk (increased attack surface, if nothing else). As such, I think you will see an increasing number of organizations follow on to the way Facebook has managed their transition and start eliminating IPv4 wherever possible and replacing it with translation shims as far out towards the border as practical.

    

    Owen

    

    

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