Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
Maile Ohye <maileko@gmail.com> Fri, 15 July 2011 07:29 UTC
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From: Maile Ohye <maileko@gmail.com>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Cc: "link-relations@ietf.org" <link-relations@ietf.org>, Joachim Kupke <joachim@kupke.za.net>, IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, Bjartur Thorlacius <svartman95@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
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Hi everyone, thanks again for the feedback! Julian, MAY :) we submit a new draft with the changes discussed in this thread? Our comments to the open items are listed below (highlighted in yellow). All comments for draft-00 are tracked in this doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SkGEFKILZKTD6r9D2Oz76LwxuXbbqtRnWB7y2NTaDt8/edit?hl=en_US Thanks again, Maile 2. OPEN. F. Ellermann: The draft could s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/, I don't see any good reason to violate a SHOULD NOT, and if that's correct MUST NOT is clearer. --seconded by M. Yevstifeyev --response by M. Ohye and J. Kupke: “We prefer SHOULD NOT for a few reasons. 1) If we outlawed multiple canonicals using MUST NOT, we would effectively call the HTML invalid. In reality, the HTML will still be processed, though it’s likely that search engines will ignore both/all rel=canonicals. 2) Worse, for the cases where somebody might rel=canonical to a 404, etc., if we use MUST NOT, it would place a huge (and entirely unrealistic) burden on the site owner to ensure that search engines recrawl pages in such an order that all rel=canonical sources are updated before a page may become a 404.” --response by J. Reschke “I'm not sure I understand the response. Is there a use case where an author would legitimately add multiple instances of the link relation?” --response by J. Kupke “It is quite conceivable that an author might want to designate multiple instances of the relation with different attributes, e.g.: <link rel="canonical" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness" media="screen"/> <link rel="canonical" href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness" media="handheld"/> It is recommended not to do that because it would foist additional complexity on implementations, and---without being presumptuous---it appears that encoding attributes such as media into the URI itself can do more harm than good. This recommendation might become less valid over time. For example, it has become rather common to encode the language (or country) of a resource into the URI when there would have been other means of their designation as well (such as, the Accept-Language HTTP header).” --response by F. Ellermann “If you are very sure that violations of the SHOULD NOT are only *ignored* I'm fine with it. But search engines could also treat violations as some kind of "link farming" and punish authors for their intended or unintended violations. In that case authors would be better off with a MUST NOT clearly indicating that it is their own fault if they get rel="canonical" wrong -- after all they are not forced to use rel="canonical". IOW, if you have "only" a SHOULD NOT for publishers you might need a corresponding "MUST ignore violations" for web crawlers.” --response by M. Ohye “In the new introduction, we’d like to state: The canonical link relation specifies the preferred URI from a set of identical or vastly similar content accessible on multiple URIs. This designation MAY be used for future references to this resource, and clients with link editing capabilities MAY automatically re-link references to the context URI to the designated URI... As we’re using “MAY” in the introduction, to later dictate search engine behavior with “you MUST ignore violations,” seems like it would be very strong language. --response by F. Ellermann with regard to M. Ohye’s [Worse, for the cases where somebody might rel=canonical to a 404, etc., if we use MUST NOT, it would place a huge (and entirely unrealistic) burden on the site owner to ensure that search engines recrawl pages in such an order that all rel=canonical sources are updated before a page may become a 404.] “Ugh. A typical use case is a simple site with a mirror, in that case a 404 should be temporary: New pages on the mirror(s) not yet available under their canonical URL, or old pages deleted under their canonical URL still found on the mirror(s). You are right, a MUST NOT does not fly for this scenario.” --response by M. Ohye “We’d like to leave this as SHOULD NOT.” Please let us know if you have further arguments. 4. OPEN. M. Yevstifeyev: > The canonical link relation specifies the preferred version of a URI I think some introductory text on linking, probably based on RFC 5988, should go here. --response by J. Reschke "Why? It defines a link relation as defined by RFC 5988, so why repeat text from over there?" --response by M. Yevstifeyev "It should be mentioned (1) what is link relation at all and (2) that RFC 5988 is a specification of that technology which this document depends on. RFC 5988 is first mentioned in Examples." --response by M. Ohye. “We could modify to: “The canonical link relation (Link Relation Types reference <xref target="RFC5988"/>) specifies the preferred version of a URI...” --response by J. Reschke “+1” --response by M. Yevstifeyev “I proposed to add something like: RFC 5988 [RFC5988] specified the mechanism which is used to indicate relationships between the links on the Internet. This document defined a new type of such relationships - canonical link relation. in Section 1 as 1st para; other paragraphs retain in this case.” --response by M. Ohye “We researched other RFCs and it seems best to start the abstract with the main subject, such as for DC1: ‘The Dublin Core [DC1] is a small set of metadata elements for describing information resources.’ or for HTML: ‘The Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) is a simple markup language used...” so we’d prefer to start with a mention of the canonical link relation and reference RFC5988 following the initial mention. The canonical link relation, developed from <xref target="RFC5988"/> which indicates relationships between Internet links, specifies the preferred URI from a set of identical or vastly similar content accessible on multiple URIs. Then, similar to the first paragraph of Section 10.3.2 of RFC 2616: This designation MAY be used for future references to this resource, and clients with link editing capabilities MAY automatically re-link references to the context URI to the designated URI." 5. CLOSED. M. Yevstifeyev: > Presence of the canonical link relation indicates to applications, such as search engines, that they MAY: I wonder why it's MAY; in this case implementations (explicitly, those apps which interpret Link: headers and corresponding construction in HTML) will be free to ignore it. I think normative SHOULD should be OK (sorry for pun). --response by J. Reschke "I think this link relation is purely advisory, so a better approach might be to replace "MAY" by "can"." --response by M. Yevstifeyev "Yes, advisory, which suits RFC 2119 definition for SHOULD: 'SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course.' and natural meaning of should - advice/recommendation." --response by M. Ohye “Thanks, in discussion with Joachim Kupke.” --response by J. Reschke “No, it's really not a SHOULD.” --response by J. Kupke “Reading paragraph 5 of RFC 2119, I don't see anything wrong with ‘MAY.’ How is ‘can’ better? It's indeed not a ‘SHOULD’ since a typical implementation, say in a search engine, will want to go to some length to find evidence for misguided usage of the relationship and in the presence of such evidence decide to ignore it. The point of ‘MAY’ is to make clear that in the absence of such evidence, the responsibility not to advertise an erroneous ‘canonical’ relationship lies with the author of the context URI.” --response by J. Reschke “See RFC 2119, Section 6: 6. Guidance in the use of these Imperatives Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used with care and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only be used where it is actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions) For example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method on implementors where the method is not required for interoperability. So my recommendation is NOT to use these kinds of keywords unless when needed as described above (but I realize that many people disagree with me...) --response by M. Ohye “Left as ‘MAY’ in the draft, but further debate welcomed.” 7. OPEN. M. Yevstifeyev: o Exist on a different protocol: http to https, or vice versa You probably meant URI scheme here, since https isn't a separate protocol. As before these points we had "The value of the target/canonical URI MAY" or, if you consider my comment above, "The target/canonical URI MAY", this point may be reworded as "Have different scheme names" (which suits the second variant of a preface to this list better). --agreed by J. Reschke --response by M. Ohye/J. Kupke: “Good catch, Mykyta. We’re fine to change the draft to “scheme”: Have different scheme names: such as http to https, or vice versa Do we now need to expand the draft for ftp:// and gopher:// URIs? For example, ftp:// and gopher:// URIs” 1) Do not come with the equivalent of RFC 5988, so a non-HTML document available at any such URI won't be available to make use of <link rel="canonical">. 2) Have corresponding GOPHER error code (item type 3) or an FTP error 550, which like HTTP 404, is forbidden from being served for the target of a <link rel="canonical">. --response by M. Yevstifeyev “I don't think we should make such changes. If we consider ftp and gopher URIs, we should also consider all other. I proposed to add generic statements which would be applicable to almost all application protocols, not only HTTP, as in current version of the draft.” --response by J. Reschke “a) A non-HTML document at a non-HTTP(s) URI may not be able to specify the link relation, but it could be the target of a link, relation, right? (that could be an example) --response by J. Kupke “Correct.” b) Future protocols might have other means to specify a link relation, btw.” --response by J. Kupke “Is there terminology that reasonably unifies errors across protocols (HTTP response code 4xx, GOPHER item type 3, FTP response code 5xx)?” --response by J. Reschke “I don't think so...” --response by M. Ohye “Changed the draft to: The target/canonical URI MAY: * Have different scheme names: such as HTTP to HTTPS, or gopher to FTP 8. OPEN. M. Yevstifeyev: Reading section 3 and 5 of the draft, it seems that is mandates use of HTTP when referring to canonical URIs. And what is the situation when target URI is a 'ftp' or 'gopher' URI? Section 3 allows different scheme names in context/target URIs, if I understand it correctly. Therefore, unless it is deliberately, I think any mention of HTTP should be replaced by more generic regulations. --response by J. Reschke "Nope; I think the HTTP examples are very useful. But maybe we can have an additional statement that the link relation isn't specific to HTTP." --response by M. Yevstifeyev "Currently we have normative reference to RFC 2616 and normative requirements with respect to HTTP. HTTP examples are OK; but it's redundant in Section 3. I suppose in Section 3 we may replace HTTP-related stuff with something in the way like: Old: o The source URI of a "300 Multiple Choices" URI (Section 10.3.1 of [RFC2616]) or a permanent redirect (Section 10.3.2 of [RFC2616]). New: o The source URI, which defines a resource which provides choice in different represntations of a given resource, ientified by the context URI, or is a link which has been permanently replaced by an other one. etc." --response by B. Thorlacius: “Your wording seems overly confusing. Which is the resource that "provides choice in different represntations of a given resource?" A standard could be assigned the URI <http://example.org/spec>. An HTTP GET /spec might be responded with an HTTP/1.1 300 choice, and an entity linking to /spec.node.html, /spec.html, /spec.pdf, and /spec.txt. The resource (the standard, that is) would in no way provide this choice. The HTTP server simply offered multiple representations.” --response by M. Yevstifeyev: “First, this was an example only. Next, my point was that the document makes HTTP/'http' scheme mandatory in context/target URIs, which I don't think is appropriate, since canonical URI may refer to a resource accessible via other protocol. Even though HTTP is going to be the most often use case of canonical link relation, we shouldn't exclude other protocols.” --response by B. Thorlacius: “I agree. However, I don't understand the need for forbidding canonical links to resources with multiple representations. Are there not to be canonical links from representations of a resource to the resource (i.e. from /spec.html and /spec.txt to /spec)?” --response by M. Yevstifeyev: “Probably such restriction is set because multiple representation choice may ultimately refer the user to a resource which is not canonical. A _definite_ canonical resource is necessary and required.” ----response by J. Cormack: “I think this relation (which is useful) need to be called something else, as it is performing a different function to canonical, which is about relations between representations of resources, rather than between representations of resources and a the resource itself like /spec. There does seem to not be a discussion of what is similar though in terms of media types - is /spec.txt similar enough that /spec.html could be a canonical link? One could certainly have a PNG version of an SVG image with a canonical link I would presume.” ------response by M. Yevstifeyev: “I personally think it is possible. For example, authoritative RFC source is .txt file on RFC Editor's site, while we have a number of other sources for RFCs, not in .txt, such as " tools.ietf.org/html/rfcXXXX" in HTML. Designating a "canonical" link to " http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfcXXXX.txt" seems to be OK. So I think we have no problem here.” --response by M. Ohye: “We can change the draft to include corresponding GOPHER or FTP error codes to demonstrate non-favortism to HTTP.” --response by M. Yevstifeyev “I don't think it would be useful (see above). It's better, as I've already mentioned in my response to (7), to provide rules which would be fine for almost any application protocol and which would be equivalent to those provided for HTTP now. For example: OLD: “Be the source URI of a 302, 303, or 307 redirect (Sections 10.3.3, 10.3.4, and 10.3.8, respectively, of [RFC2616])." NEW: "Provide a redirect to the other resource because it is temporarily unavailable." This is what HTTP 302 and 307 responses stand for. 303 response is used in HTTP only and here is no equivalent to it in other protocols.” --response by J. Reschke “...my general feeling here is that having specific HTTP examples is good, as long as the spec doesn't make the reader think it's the only protocol that qualifies.” --response by M. Ohye “Given Julian’s comments in #15 below, and M. Yevstifeyev’s original concern of being too HTTP specific, this now reads: Be the source URI of a temporary redirect. For HTTP, this refers to status codes 302, 303, or 307 (Sections 10.3.3, 10.3.4, and 10.3.8, respectively, of <xref target="RFC2616"/>). 10. OPEN. J. Reschke: This specification defines the canonical link relation -- an element which designates the preferred version of content/URI from a set of duplicate or near duplicate pages. Maybe put "canonical" in double quotes? (similar in other places) --response by M. Ohye “How adamant are you about double quoting “canonical” in “canonical link relation” throughout the draft? That’s a lot of double quotes (18 of them :). I think these double quotes would be more distracting than helpful, but if that’s how other RFCs are written, we’ll certainly reconsider.” 11. CLOSED. J. Reschke: The canonical link relation specifies the preferred version of a URI from a set of identical or vastly similar content that may be maybe just "preferred URI"? --response by M. Ohye “Changed. Here’s the new abstract: The canonical link relation, developed from <xref target="RFC5988"/> which indicates relationships between Internet links, specifies the preferred URI from a set of identical or vastly similar content accessible on multiple URIs. 12. CLOSED. J. Reschke: The canonical (target URI) MUST contain content that duplicates "canonical (target) URI MUST identify content" (it's not the content of the URI, it's the content of the identified resource) --response by M. Ohye “Updated in draft.” 13. CLOSED. J. Reschke extremely similar, or is a superset of the content in the context s/in/at/: --response by M. Ohye “Updated in draft.” 14. OPEN. J. Reschke: The value of the target/canonical URI MAY: o Be self-referential (context URI identical to target URI) o Specify a relative or absolute URI "Specify a URI Reference (see [RFC3986], Section 4.1), i.e., a full URI or a relative reference” --response by M. Ohye “How about the edit below? Specify a URI Reference (see [RFC3986], Section 4.1), i.e., an absolute URI or a relative reference 15. OPEN. J. Reschke: o Be the source URI of a 302, 303, or 307 redirect (Sections 10.3.3, 10.3.4, and 10.3.8, respectively, of [RFC2616]). Maybe "Be the source URI of a temporary redirect, such as..."? --response by M. Ohye “Changed to Be the source URI of a temporary redirect. Using HTTP, this refers to status codes 302, 303, or 307 (Sections 10.3.3, 10.3.4, and 10.3.8, respectively, of <xref target="RFC2616"/>). Julian, please let me know if you’d like this phased differently. 16. OPEN. J. Reschke: may designate the canonical link relation in HTML as specified in [RFC5988] Why do we cite RFC 5988 here? Should this ref HTML? --response by M. Ohye “Changed to: may designate the canonical link relation in HTML as specified in <xref target="RFC1866"/> I created this reference, but I couldn’t find an organization or email address for Dan Connolly. <reference anchor="RFC1866"> <front> <title>Hypertext Markup Language - 2.0</title> <author initials="T." surname="Berners-Lee" fullname="T. Berners-Lee"> <organization>MIT/W3C</organization> <address><email>timbl@w3.org</email></address> </author> <author initials="D." surname="Connolly" fullname="Dan Connolly"> </author> <date month="November" year="1995"/> </front> <seriesInfo name="RFC" value="1866"/> </reference> Julian, should I have done anything differently? 17. CLOSED. J. Reschke: <link rel="canonical" href="http://www.example.com/page.php?item=purse" /> or alternatively, in the HTTP Header as specified in Section 5 of [RFC5988]: s/Header/header field/ --response by M. Ohye “Updated in the draft.” 18. CLOSED. J. Reschke: Recommendations Before implementing the canonical link relation, verification of the Maybe s/implementing/adding/? --response by M. Ohye “Updated in the draft.” On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 2:00 AM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote: > On 2011-07-09 04:44, Joachim Kupke wrote: >> >> ... >>>> >>>> 5. OPEN. M. Yevstifeyev: >>>>> >>>>> Presence of the canonical link relation indicates to applications, >>>> >>>> such as search engines, that they MAY: >>>> I wonder why it's MAY; in this case implementations (explicitly, those >>>> apps which interpret Link: headers and corresponding construction in >>>> HTML) will be free to ignore it. I think normative SHOULD should be OK >>>> (sorry for pun). >>>> --response by J. Reschke "I think this link relation is purely advisory, >>>> so a better approach might be to replace "MAY" by "can"." >> >> Reading paragraph 5 of RFC 2119, I don't see anything wrong with >> "MAY." How is "can" better? >> ... > > See RFC 2119, Section 6: > >> 6. Guidance in the use of these Imperatives >> >> Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used with care >> and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only be used where it is >> actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has >> potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions) For >> example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method >> on implementors where the method is not required for >> interoperability. > > So my recommendation is NOT to use these kinds of keywords unless when > needed as described above (but I realize that many people disagree with > me...) > >> ... >>> >>> b) Future protocols might have other means to specify a link relation, >>> btw. >> >> Is there terminology that reasonably unifies errors across protocols >> (HTTP response code 4xx, GOPHER item type 3, FTP response code 5xx)? >> ... > > I don't think so... > > Best regards, Julian >
- [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canoni… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Frank Ellermann
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Frank Ellermann
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Bjartur Thorlacius
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Bjartur Thorlacius
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Justin Cormack
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-ca… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Frank Ellermann
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Joachim Kupke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Maile Ohye
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Joachim Kupke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Acti… Peter Saint-Andre