Re: [arch-d] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-08.txt

Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Fri, 15 July 2022 00:16 UTC

Return-Path: <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32ABCC16ECDB for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.128
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.128 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DAHkoLuOEbGl for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0FA3C16ECF4 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4LkX2t2zm2z1pXtd; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1657844182; bh=WkeJDJeYTRq6qfopvkoKSNsWg5XMO71tSt4eFLg1dqM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=VBSEbO+hSnLIdRK38CCeyRENdvRbodwLLWgY7CMG1fy/+vPFvWbT+OvoNl0Oy3iKo xNKimJTvETfGGxJ/fMJ5506IKkaaZMC/IkzkMe4bh/s/gG+/+8PEpnSR7BsS4agzZj AVv5IQRgG8UXjVWJJGSRniINzZ19GAUfb8MABL6M=
X-Quarantine-ID: <cJJ1LvVYnVkc>
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net
Received: from [192.168.23.181] (unknown [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4LkX2s4Cl7z1pXt6; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <207ced37-6fab-b5b4-dd27-2bd585760e9b@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 20:16:20 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.11.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
References: <a06000c5-939a-a896-9c0f-576e9e2ff97f@gmail.com> <D20FCDD6-3756-40E7-AD6A-416A2C464DF1@gmail.com> <dbee51f0-1913-af6e-de00-c3a7f5b77f68@gmail.com> <6723979f-c496-43e1-a389-a50dd3af2224@beta.fastmail.com> <ade079ff-b8b4-76ab-626c-e74f99229205@joelhalpern.com> <0bdc5d0f-2411-4797-b116-d46643d21746@beta.fastmail.com> <e7bacfeb-e6f2-99d7-c0fa-d9067e7e4bd4@kit.edu> <0f77119c-e015-4484-adae-7118262bad70@beta.fastmail.com>
From: Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
In-Reply-To: <0f77119c-e015-4484-adae-7118262bad70@beta.fastmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/WYkGm5RNQXy1q6mwb3j2xu_Hm1o>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-08.txt
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 00:16:27 -0000

Before I spend time and energy on an aspect that I realized is bothering 
me, I want to ask a question:

Are the references to well-maintained protocols important to your 
argument, or distinctly secondary?

Yours,

Joel

On 7/14/2022 8:00 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2022, at 07:09, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote:
>> Please reread RFC1122 section 1.2.2.
> You might be surprised to hear that I have read that text.
>
> Joe's summary is right, "It IS about the fact that no specification is complete and the ways that different people interpret the same specification."
>
> Yes, this talks about how - for security - you need to handle arbitrary inputs.  That's always been true; RFC 3552 does a better job of treating that.  No debate there.  But it's advice regarding the handling of unexpected error codes is just bad.  You've read my draft, I won't repeat the part where it explains how relying on robustness as the basis for extensibility is a terrible idea.
>
> There were other points in your email I strongly disagree with.  I consider these superficial points.  The central point is that the very concept itself (as Joe stated it) is not a good basis for building a protocol ecosystem.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss