Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> Tue, 12 March 2019 18:11 UTC
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To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>
Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, CFRG <cfrg@irtf.org>, "RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)" <rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>, secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
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From: Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 14:11:30 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
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On 3/10/2019 7:38 PM, Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL wrote: > I do not think CFRG should move to become a part of the IETF. > > While (some of) the CFRG-produced documents may be de-facto standards, > they aren't of the kind that IETF is expected to define, and deal with > somewhat different things. My point is that the CFRG is behaving more like a WG and should be following WG rules and not RG rules. The charter for the CFRG basically says it can bring stuff that's been published elsewhere ("... via Informational RFCs (in the tradition of, e.g., RFC 1321 (MD5) and RFC 2104 (HMAC)."), but has become the first publisher for a few things that weren't mere republications but involved setting on-the-wire/on disk formats (e.g., Curve25519 and related) that have been accepted as de-facto standards. Then there's the requirements setting documents. If these were just math publications with the bits and bytes formats published in the IETF, that would be fine - but that doesn't appear to be what's happening. Now Stephen is suggesting that the CFRG become the filter through which all crypto related things are brought to the IETF or independent stream. Two things - CFRG is not in the IETF, and that's not the general purpose of a research group. Rechartering the CFRG (or part of it) as a WG following WG rules would at least fix that problem. A third possibility (the first was rechartering, the second was splitting into a IETF WG and an IRTF RG), is dual chartering the CFRG as both a RG and a WG. It would allow/require the group to produce actual standards, but also to keep on with it's more researchy tasks. The fourth possibility is doing a better job of referring the less research/more practical bit and byte on the wire documents to the IETF rather than keeping them and also leave the filtering to the IETF groups such as secdispatch or saag. Later, Mike > > Regards, > Uri > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 10, 2019, at 18:46, StJohns, Michael <msj@nthpermutation.com > <mailto:msj@nthpermutation.com>> wrote: > >> I’ve been wondering for a while now whether it’s time to move the >> CFRG over to the IETF as a working group. Stephen’s comment on >> routing stuff directly to the CFRG suggests to me that it’s probably >> time or RSN. >> >> In recent years, the CFRG has produced documents that are for lack >> of a better phrase de facto standards. The rate of document >> production of the CFRG mimics more closely that of a WG than the >> other extant RGs AFAICT. As an RG the CFRG isn’t permitted to >> publish standards track documents, nor is the IESG or the ISE >> permitted or constrained to require a conflict review on the >> documents the CFRG does produce. [the latter comment is my >> understanding of the rules of the research stream - it may be flawed, >> but the purpose of RGs is supposed to be looking at futures and that >> by definition shouldn’t be conflicting with the nows]. >> >> An alternative might be to charter a crypto standards WG and try to >> keep the CFRG focused on years out - say how the heck do we deal with >> the quantum apocalypse? >> >> Or keep the math in CFRG and the on the wire specs for using in a WG. >> >> >> >> Discuss! >> >> Mike >> >> On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 17:48 Stephen Farrell >> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>> wrote: >> >> >> >> PS: In case the ISE is still listening, the above is a >> reason why I think having CFRG produce this kind of RFC >> (instead of routing 'em via the ISE) would be a better >> plan. CFRG could (I think) likely reach better informed >> judgements (in the open) as to whether or not some crypto >> technique is really worth documenting in an RFC. >>
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Andy Lutomirski
- [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts David Wong
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Dan Brown
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts John Mattsson
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Ted Krovetz
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group?… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… John Mattsson
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Valery Smyslov
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Mathy Vanhoef
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… denis bider
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Martin Thomson
- [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter CFRG… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Björn Haase
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Ted Krovetz
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Benjamin Kaduk