Re: [dmarc-ietf] DMARCbis issue: Separating reporting and policy

Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com> Sat, 25 May 2019 20:53 UTC

Return-Path: <dcrocker@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F02120130 for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E0qk3-NsvpUk for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6E1812012E for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id r10so11713469otd.4 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hT9WceKd71rMV7dIg2aE6GPs1w2oNWumCtcsnuJ4l2M=; b=ltXczS3IVTyax8ZvcCKOcdTb8rw67Yrwio32LPxhJzQXmgIbYdrLlT5cD8XpNrTVwx gNlwN/vKufPEo+VHPHHqotn/nhjYIirNtXPjDrM3HVVx6+964XvnQMn+dnYIXDNIBuJ2 CJRUg8g15VqWFPQlAvS57aGnrPZsMc5DUE0b5Z4kZdmG5I0L3C0Ky/DJ4Imd3zMdizNl lhukx76nfLS+Y6FFIp7KytFYp5+RVpB1XzPK0zPw35xge3zibkFefIX7qxKoknu7nY/j KP4Yr+qI1BCFcoF7F55Zyq5G/kSLEpQ2fzZNeCF7kYCK8z49DSe1q+rC/XXL1doN0ohB rBSg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hT9WceKd71rMV7dIg2aE6GPs1w2oNWumCtcsnuJ4l2M=; b=YYtfyNBfRLSiZbLFTfV0W4ODkNqk1uzR25xUxTFJFWz9TvY8pSzxm49TmHa4DHaTCs wI+2u0CTPr3JvVFnmHen91ixux3fCq9S8/4eFjCRWkIc/9f2oMCt51aM0RVrmwXF2f1e 56rnSts9PeXTgElStUf22gIDTaQVhq5A8InqP3e6KL0hgWbpNtY+EGL2bdnqGtGguqJM Lf/NC/FqyPkxkZi2RLcHa4U1enlCQ/gzle1g4vRh3ipSeUCk4Ja58zh988twZsy0iIs1 wVDraHyxn/Rqy2g/g5G4s7E0PbyGZ5GLU53dLLamatXvwyrFGCpk0cxrt4XHZCUJZ1Td e1Ww==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUBkIvVyys+s+RyM3NjFkJRKRcCVIwx7a3rynRLXZwgGX3KJKQh UxlW6vagEomyzNb2yPre9AKcsAWr4Ds=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz5vxwi45Y4gUX25kSdWe5s3ORvrPBqArW2oiCfl9eEWUnGN+c6EckxtEAqD97AtBf8nRHSOw==
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7d13:: with SMTP id v19mr45814135otn.234.1558817597425; Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1700:a3a0:4c80:9015:bdb5:7e75:4574? ([2600:1700:a3a0:4c80:9015:bdb5:7e75:4574]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 59sm2493033otq.8.2019.05.25.13.53.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net>, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Cc: dmarc@ietf.org
References: <20190523225213.C214620147B780@ary.qy> <ab587c42-dd2f-2403-999a-c7d559764726@bluepopcorn.net> <alpine.OSX.2.21.9999.1905241036450.50141@ary.qy> <280824a0-536b-91f1-8072-f7d1cf3051aa@bluepopcorn.net>
From: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <789c58b1-7b45-3af0-dd1b-aca0c415db02@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 13:53:13 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <280824a0-536b-91f1-8072-f7d1cf3051aa@bluepopcorn.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/-TKUl0MFvqxYJLqgRIU0z5RS4qE>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] DMARCbis issue: Separating reporting and policy
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 20:53:20 -0000

On 5/24/2019 10:35 AM, Jim Fenton wrote:
> I hope this isn't devolving into a "we can't make any changes, because
> it might break something" argument.

We are quite a long ways from that.  In fact we are in the "please make 
a case for their being a serious problem that needs fixing" argument, 
combined with the "please explain how the proposed solution will fix the 
serious problem" argument.


> 1. When an MTA product says that it "supports DMARC", does that mean

That's a generic issue that applies to many circumstances.  And since 
there is no standard meaning for "supports x", it has marketing utility, 
not technical.  That's not going to get fixed in this wg.


> that it has to support both policy and reporting? RFC 7489 Section 8

There are multiple opportunities for ambiguity.  Another is:  Does it 
mean publishing or interpreting?

Splitting the documents doesn't solve any of this.


> 2. Along similar lines, I get confused when I hear that x% of {some set
> of domains} has "deployed DMARC". What does that mean? Have they

Ultimately, you are asking marketing questions, not technical ones.

d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net