Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication

[Jay Daley <[e-mail]>]

> On 30/07/2021, at 4:12 AM, Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Bob Hinden <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> Joel,
> 
> > On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> > 
> > I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important purpose for the plenary.
> > 
> > Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not.  That is why, even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the plenary to be important.
> 
> I agree.  One very important purpose of the plenary is for the community to speak to our leadership and for them to listen.
> 
> I 100% agree. While it might be worth thinking about how to make that part more productive, it seems to me to be the one non-optional part.

I agree and would add one other non-optional part, which is leadership presenting to the community on what they are doing, as that taken together with the open-mic ensures a f2f session of transparency and scrutiny.  

Jay

> 
> -Ekr
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> > 
> > Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on an issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know what a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable outcome during that time.
> > 
> > I do not see how that would fit with what you have below.
> > 
> > Yours,
> > Joel
> > 
> > On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the gendispatch list and see what people think.  At the end of the day, I am aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative to this (cough, Pete).  If nobody else is interested, or lots of people think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it.  But what is written below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint.
> >> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main <https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main>. Mostly so that all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a draft if there is interest.
> >> The Principles
> >>  * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be
> >>    reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting.
> >>  * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important
> >>    question for the community to consider.
> >>  * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facilitated;
> >>    and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration.
> >>  * There should be some outcome.  The outcome may be a mailing list, a
> >>    BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback from
> >>    a body such as the IESG or IAB.  The outcome shouldn't be an
> >>    immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to
> >>    focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes to
> >>    effect that change.
> >>  * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because there
> >>    may not be anything important to discuss.
> >>  * The community should decide what's important.  This is a bit of a
> >>    chicken and egg issue, though.  Sometimes, an issue must get tossed
> >>    around before its importance is understood by others.  What's
> >>    important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue is important
> >>    and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others.
> >> How does this differ from *dispatch?
> >> There are two major differences:
> >> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance.
> >> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but
> >>    simply an important question.
> >> Possible Examples
> >>  * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past)
> >>  * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular
> >>    threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future)
> >>  * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past)
> >>  * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable?
> >>    (potential future?)
> >>  * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and future?)
> >> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you might expect at an in person plenary.
> >> Modalities
> >>  * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions.  I think
> >>    we've all seen bad interactions in email,  and we seem to do better
> >>    in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, quite
> >>    frankly, even if that involves meetecho.  perhaps a "discussion"
> >>    might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did consultations
> >>    toward the end of her tenor.
> >>  * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point that a
> >>    plenary discussion can occur.  Perhaps Github could provide us this
> >>    opportunity.
> >>  * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and
> >>    help interested parties develop their views *prior* to a plenary
> >>    discussion.
> >>  * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *short*
> >>    position papers.  Again, not email.
> >> Comments?
> >> Eliot
> > 
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-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
[e-mail]